Spoilers episode 5

WotW Spoiler Town, with extensive Game of Thrones Season 7 Spoilers including major leaks, filming spoilers, photos and all. Consider yourself warned!
JennyT
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:59 am

Boudica wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:17 pm
JennyT wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:02 pm
I actually don't think they didn't know what to do with Jon this season.They needed him and Dany to hook up.Also they needed to divert Dany from her conquest.This fits naturally with his desire and mission to save humanity.So the path was clear.Obviously they also need the badass Kit action sequence and he can't meet Bran and Arya yet.I honestly don't know what other thing he could have done staying in the north.Play second fiddle to Sansa/LF?This way he is in the midst of action everywhere and his motivations throughout the season are clear.At the same he gets to meet a lot of new characters and gets much closer to his Targ side.
I don't know he does seem to be hanging around Dragonstone, it was a bit weird in the last episode when Dany left and he was still just hanging around there. But I have enjoyed Jon and Dany's scenes together, plus the Jon and Tyrion's scenes. The scenes on Dragonstone have been pretty good, I am looking forward to the Dragonstone scenes for this episode.

Why do you think they don't want Jon and Arya to meet up at this stage?
I don't think him hanging on Dragonstone while Dany was gone was weird at all.What was he supposed to do?He is waiting for the Dragonglass and he still needs to convince her.Plus she was gone for like a day.Well I think they are holding off Arya/Jon for season 8 cause I think they will most probably reunite in a highly dramatic moment and it's not time for that yet.

Pigeon
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:44 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:55 am

I'm more concerned that there won't be a heartwarming reunion between Jon and Arya at all, since that's what so many of us want to happen. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, as I'm always waiting for that darn rug to get pulled out from under us.

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:21 am

elybe wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:58 pm
Mau mau wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:49 pm
I can't really approach with maturity someone who really think that the creators of the show hate their main character. That's so nonsensical on so many levels.


I understand that someone doesn't like how they are writing him or any other character, but to say that D&D hate him and hate that they are forced to keep him in the show makes no sense at all. I'm sure that they are writing him in the way that they think is the best for the show and his character, just like every other decision that they've made.
I don't think D&D feel forced to keep him on the show, but they definitely have contradictory opinions about him (one side of which is undeniably disdainful) based on the views they expressed in the outline. They write that he learns nothing from his mistakes and is just a carbon copy of Ned and Robb (not the case for GRRM's Jon at all), is naive and oblivious (compared to GRRM's Jon who sees through people's bullshit, can sniff out Thorne and Slynt's plotting to take over the NW in ASOS from a mile away, and "doesn't miss much" in general), and while his book counterpart has a moderate amount of political savvy and social intuition, D&D write his show counterpart as politically tone deaf and utterly devoid of common sense or people skills. These are not decisions being made for the good of the show; they're decisions that boil down to their own biases and a piss poor understanding of the character they're adapting, and these are on full display in the outlines. The character they are writing is not GRRM's Jon Snow.

The assumption that anytime D&D throw characters under the bus it's for the betterment of the show has also been debunked numerous times. How did butchering Cat and Robb in Season 2 better the show? How was Jon leading Ygritte around on a rope while she called him a moron for two episodes better service to his character or to the plot than Jon's original actions in the books, which actually ensured the mission's success? How was Septgate good for the story? How was regressing Jaime after all he went through in Season 3 just to shove him into the failure of a Dorne plot better for the story? If you'd prefer to hear that I disagree with how they write Jon, then fine. I do. But I also think they have a pretty bipolar opinion of him, and the contempt end of the spectrum is tempered mostly by their high regard for Kit Harington and their enjoyment of writing him action sequences. At this point, watching his scenes has almost become a thrill because I never know which way the pendulum is going to swing.
You listed many differences from the books, but it doesn't matter what you think about those changes, D&D made all of them because they thought the show would be better. You don't need to agree, but claiming that those changes were made because they hate some characters is childlish.

Jon that "doesn't miss much" in the books is still killed at the end of ADWD. There are so many characters at the Wall in the books, just like at every other location. It is easier to create complicated political situation when you have 50 characters at one location. Maybe even more. The show had something like 10 character in that storyline in S5.

But my point is that D&D don't hate Jon. They created original scenes for him more than any other major character. Some even think that they gave him Stannis' storyline from ADWD ( which for me is nonsense). So no, they don't hate him, they don't feel like they are forced to write him and he is one of the most popular characters among show watchers, so they did create a character that many people love.

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:23 am

Jack Bauer 24 wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:57 pm
I've heard teleportation is going to be really bad this episode.
No more than season 1 episode 8, but people are hypocritical.

elybe
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:32 am

JennyT wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:56 am
I have heard teleportation doesn't exist and time just passes.Very common in movies and tv shows.
I hope the departure from Dragonstone and the arrival at Eastwatch are back-to-back scenes. Go all out is what I say.

Pigeon wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:55 am
I'm more concerned that there won't be a heartwarming reunion between Jon and Arya at all, since that's what so many of us want to happen.
I don't see how they can avoid it since Jon's heading back to Winterfell and we know that, in the books at the very least, he is going to learn the truth of his parentage - so I'd think a Bran/Samwell reunion is inevitable. Then again, I also would have figured that between Jon meeting up with Gendry, Sandor, and the BwoB, the topic of Arya would have come up at least once in order to reinforce how close they were on his end, but so far the people Jon runs into have only been mentioning Sansa.

Mau mau wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:21 am

You listed many differences from the books, but it doesn't matter what you think about those changes, D&D made all of them because they thought the show would be better. You don't need to agree, but claiming that those changes were made because they hate some characters is childlish.
First of all, doesn't matter to who? I could have sworn this was open for discussion without any illusion of having any influence on the actual material? I really don't require anyone's validation to express my opinion on a subjective work of fiction, nor do I expect D&D to change their course. Also, can you please point out where I said that D&D made these changes because they "hate" Jon? I think if you're going to accuse someone of being "childish" for disagreeing with you, you may want to back that up with something they actually wrote. I actually did acknowledge that D&D's opinion of Jon seems to be contradictory in nature, with him being a "great King" one minute while being a bumbling fool who never should have been King in the first place the next. I said that D&D hold biases that are apparent in the outlines, and they really are plain as day. In fact, I have provided several examples of assertions they make about Jon in those outlines that are patently untrue of his book counterpart, with examples to support those.
Jon that "doesn't miss much" in the books is still killed at the end of ADWD.
That's a very predictable argument to trot out, because it's pretty much the only one Jon critics seem to have in their arsenal :lol: As though Jon's the only character who has ever been on the receiving end of a surprise attack, unlike Tyrion almost being assassinated at Blackwater or Dany's many assassination attempts that she never saw coming. Why did I bring up perceptiveness as a character trait for Jon? Because in the books, that shit's canon. Explicitly so. "There was little (his eyes) didn't see," "You don't miss much, do you Jon?," "Don't let me get in the way of your plotting," "You're a sweet fool, Sam. It's been happening for days," etc. I didn't pull these out of thin air. Jon is written to be a perceptive character in the books, with many receipts to back it up, and he knew that he had enemies plotting against him at the Wall. Choosing to put that knowledge aside (bad decision, no argument there) and not knowing it was a risk are not the same thing. It's also a valid distinction that the mutineers attacked him during a diversion at the Wall. But sure, a couple of Jon's men jumped him while he was focused on getting a giant to stop dismembering people, so Jon doesn't notice shit. Right on.

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:53 pm

This whole convesation started when I commented about really strange opinion expresed here that the reason behind D&D's writing choices is their hatred for Jon and that they must feel forced by GRRM to even write about him.

I don't care what some people think about his character in the show, that's not the point, they can think whatever they want, but to claim that D&D's motive is hatred really reminded me of paranoid Stannis' fans.

And no, you didn't say this, but I wasn't even speaking to you in my first comment, you were the one who started this conversation, accusing me of not respecting different opinions. What I tried to explain ( but failed it seems) is that I don't have anything against people who don't like the way Jon or any other character was written. I am against this childish and paranoid attacks on D&D.

They write Jon and every other thing in this show in the way they think it will make the show better. You can like it or not, but they are not hating any character, especially not the character like Jon who got so many original big scenes from the show.

Every POV character has some differences compared to his show version. I don't think that there are more differences with Jon, than with Dany, Arya, Bran, Sansa and the rest.
Last edited by Mau mau on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:54 pm

And what are examples of their bias against Jon in outlines?

elybe
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:33 pm

mau mau,

I know it was a generalized statement meant to encompass a number of posters, among whom I include myself since I also picked up on and commented on D&D's attitude towards Jon in the outlines. I am also one of the people who didn't get the hand-wringing over Stannis, but I still understand where his fanbase was coming from. D&D have a tendency to shortchange and mutilate characters when it suits them, and you're always going to react more strongly when it's your favorite character's turn. I don't pretend for one minute that this treatment is exclusive to Jon, and I also recognize that, on the flip side, D&D bend over backwards to give him as much screen time and focus as possible. As a whole, I don't respect their decision to undermine his character with shortcomings that his book counterpart doesn't possess in order to make their favorite characters look better, and it does make me think less of them as writers. The character they're supposed to be adapting already has more than enough of his own observable flaws without their attempting to write off his show counterpart as too stupid and obstinate to live, just like his dad and big bro.

If you want examples, read anything Winterfell-related in the outlines, even after Jon departs. That's where you'll find the examples I've already listed, among others. Most of it is framed as Sansa's perspective of Jon, but she's basically D&D's mouthpiece at this point.

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:32 pm

There are many differences between that outline and the final product. Sansa was written almost as a villain, she was jealous at Jon, Bran and Arya. It seemed like LF had a much stronger hold over her. Jaime was written as someone more in love with Cersei. His scene with Olenna has a completely different context. There are other differences as well.

My point is, that outline was written in April of 2016. Even before S6. It was just a first big draft of the season. Many things changed. And for the better IMO.

And with you super fans it's always the same. I would like to see what Sansa's superfans would say about your comment that she is D&D's mouthpiece at this point. I also heard Dany fans who think they are ruining her character for "D&D's white knight hero" Jon. And so on.

I am fan of this story as a whole. What is objectively true is that almost every POV character is richer in the books. The show just can't compete with a medium that has no real limitations of space and where you can read thoughts of those people. Maybe Sam is better in the show, because I don't feel any real development in the books for him. And Cersei ofc. But every other POV character is deeper in the books. And that is something natural. No realistic person can expect anything different.

So I don't think that D&D wrote Jon in a way that they did to make their "favorite characters" look better, because superfans of those characters that you think are their favorites think that they are sacrificing those characters for Jon or someone else.

What I think you and rest should accept is that every POV character will be richer in the books.

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trarecar
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:48 am

Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:57 pm

Tyrion definitely looked upset by all the dead Lannister men, and was hesitant to stand before them.

It seemed super out of character for a man like Tarly to just give up his House that way. It would have been more realistic for him to browbeat Dickon into bending the knee, but then Sam couldn't lead House Tarly. Or I wonder if he will still stick to his vows and give it to Little Sam? Or let his sister have it?

Drogon REALLY liked Jon. WTF. I know it's probably just cause of CGI costs, but you'd think with Drogon already having a rider he'd be less interested in someone else? Like, one of the other dragons should be curious about Jon.

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