Complete overview of Episode 7

WotW Spoiler Town, with extensive Game of Thrones Season 8 Spoilers including major leaks, filming spoilers, photos and all. Consider yourself warned!
Dyanna
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:08 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:10 pm

BeardedOnion wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:36 pm
Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm
It's some years since I read the books but I remember Jon as being intelligent and insightful. Am I misremembering or something? I get the hero side on screen and the humility and honesty but I'm missing the other side of him. I don't recall him being blind to the politics.

My memory is pretty rubbish though :oops:
He's very much blind to politics,he was pretty retarded in ADWD, even a blind man could see the issues rising up around him.

I'm not a super Jon fan myself (though I really do like him) but I sympathize with them when he does do dumb things for no good reason at times. I don't think his character is close to ruined though, I think this season he's been level headed mostly, pragmatic and pretty impressive. He's the guy in the right here while Dany and the rest focused on petty shit.

The thing you need to understand is Jon's going to be THE main guy at the end. He's going to be king, the hero, the legendary figure of the story when the dust settles. Ultimately he's going to get the lion's share of glory in this story and Dany is very, VERY likely being set up to be a tragic character who dies for whatever reason, ultimately never sitting on the throne. They are nervous as hell about making him the guy who always wins and always has the spotlight which is why certain characters sometimes steal it, IE Dany this season at times. She's not going to end nearly as high as Jon and they want her to have some glory while she still can.

The audience still loves and respects Jon despite the issues and in the end, all will be right and Jon will be where he rightly belongs. If I can trust any character to be given proper justice in the end, it's him, no question.

Thank you. That helps. I really must revisit the books some time.

I take your point about the dumbing down they are doing. Hmmmm.

elybe
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:35 pm

BeardedOnion wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:36 pm
The thing you need to understand is Jon's going to be THE main guy at the end. He's going to be king, the hero, the legendary figure of the story when the dust settles....They are nervous as hell about making him the guy who always wins and always has the spotlight.....

The audience still loves and respects Jon despite the issues and in the end, all will be right and Jon will be where he rightly belongs. If I can trust any character to be given proper justice in the end, it's him, no question.
It really helps to get some perspective from people who like Jon but aren't necessarily as invested in him as those who list him among their top faves. I guess I'm coming from a place where I don't think Jon's success in the end is guaranteed, and this could be adding insult to injury. I understand that he's basically untouchable until his parentage has its intended impact on the plot, but I'm not prepared to place my bets on him as the endgame ruler either. I've watched other protagonists get the disgrace-on-top-of-death treatment, and the way D&D seem to regard Jon in the outlines makes it impossible for me to fully shake the notion that they wouldn't hesitate to go there. I also think they've swung too far to the side of having Jon never win, to the point where they risk having his supposed triumph feel unsatisfying and unearned. He can't be flawless, but he has to have at least some accomplishments that he didn't stumble his way into. I think GRRM has managed to strike this balance very well. Book Jon is allowed to make mistakes, but unlike his show counterpart, I know I can expect him to learn from them and revise his approach moving forward.
Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:52 pm

Now I'm wondering just how much of GRRM's ending D&D will actually include (especially as far as Jon is concerned). They've diverged so drastically from book AND show canon, that I wouldn't be surprised to hear they changed their mind and are doing their own ending. What GRRM has in mind might not even fit the characters on the show anymore, for all we know. At this point, what use is all of the buildup about Jon's background when the character is getting trashed like this...

I wish they had just let him go south in season 6 and live his life like he wanted to. It would have been a much more dignified ending than whatever it is they're doing now.
I think the broad strokes will be the same (who lives, who dies, who rules, etc.), but they could very well change the context if they so choose. For instance, I can imagine BotB in the books playing out this way: Jon uses his "death" as a get-out-of-the-NW free card, travels around the North in an unsuccessful attempt to rally Northern houses to his cause (Lyanna Mormont is one of the few who agree to help, as per show), is forced to fight Ramsay outnumbered, may or may not unexpectedly be baited by Rickon, and will have a surprise rescue by the Vale, followed by a surprise reunion with Sansa. Robb's will surfaces, the Northern lords feel ashamed for not fighting beside him, and Sansa and the Vale's contribution are overlooked. This isn't lost on Jon, but he knows that accepting the crown is the only way to ensure that his warnings about The Others actually carry weight, so he does. Same outcome, same major beats, but this time Jon moves through his own storyline with intention, willfully works to take back the North, and doesn't spend the entire book being made to look like an obstinate fool who doesn't listen to Sansa. As BeardedOnion suggests, they could very well be setting Jon up to be the endgame King, but that doesn't mean they're prepared to depict him as having earned it.

BeardedOnion
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:37 pm

Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:10 pm
BeardedOnion wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:36 pm
Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm
It's some years since I read the books but I remember Jon as being intelligent and insightful. Am I misremembering or something? I get the hero side on screen and the humility and honesty but I'm missing the other side of him. I don't recall him being blind to the politics.

My memory is pretty rubbish though :oops:
He's very much blind to politics,he was pretty retarded in ADWD, even a blind man could see the issues rising up around him.

I'm not a super Jon fan myself (though I really do like him) but I sympathize with them when he does do dumb things for no good reason at times. I don't think his character is close to ruined though, I think this season he's been level headed mostly, pragmatic and pretty impressive. He's the guy in the right here while Dany and the rest focused on petty shit.

The thing you need to understand is Jon's going to be THE main guy at the end. He's going to be king, the hero, the legendary figure of the story when the dust settles. Ultimately he's going to get the lion's share of glory in this story and Dany is very, VERY likely being set up to be a tragic character who dies for whatever reason, ultimately never sitting on the throne. They are nervous as hell about making him the guy who always wins and always has the spotlight which is why certain characters sometimes steal it, IE Dany this season at times. She's not going to end nearly as high as Jon and they want her to have some glory while she still can.

The audience still loves and respects Jon despite the issues and in the end, all will be right and Jon will be where he rightly belongs. If I can trust any character to be given proper justice in the end, it's him, no question.

Thank you. That helps. I really must revisit the books some time.

I take your point about the dumbing down they are doing. Hmmmm.
I may have been harsh, Potatoes is right that Jon learns from his mistakes and is pretty smart in ADWD but I still think he made some huge mistakes personally, but understandable ones.

Honestly though, I don't really care about book Jon anymore since GRRM clearly doesn't. Given that Jaime is heading North, I have almost no doubt they are 100% doing GRRM's ending and whatever he has in store for Jon's ultimate fate.
elybe wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:35 pm
As BeardedOnion suggests, they could very well be setting Jon up to be the endgame King, but that doesn't mean they're prepared to depict him as having earned it.
I don't know. Even post books, the show has really driven home the fact he's done the most fighting for the realm, the one who defended Hardhome, the one who made peace with the Wildlings, the one who's made the North's sole purpose to prepare for the war, the one who converted Dany to his cause, the guy who also led the Wight hunt and sucessfully did so and will bring undeniable evidence to all the main characters, shifting their attentions which will be HUGE. He's done more than any other character easily. Sure, he fucks up and plays second fiddle sometimes but even now he's the guy doing all the heavy lifting. In S5, nobody but the wall knew about the undead, now the whole realm will know thanks to Jon. He's easily ALREADY earnt his crown and his biggest moment hasn't even come yet lol
Last edited by BeardedOnion on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ghost of winterfell
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:33 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:43 pm

I wouldn't have minded Jon making understandable mistakes on the show, if they would have him learn from it and grow. That's my biggest problem with Jon post resurrection, that there seems to be no growth in him. He just keeps repeating the same mistakes over n over.

I agree with FP, I almost feel like it would have been better if D&D had let him go early S6, rather than what they have done with him since then.

Violator
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:14 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:46 pm

I can tell this place is full of whingers and perhaps one or two gingers.

selena
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:02 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:20 pm

if Jamie walks off like this describes I will stan him forever..love that

Sansa/Ayra tag teaming to get LF is gonna be epic

and..truth... I dont know if I am even gonna pay attention to BOATSEX the first viewing becuase.....

WE FINALLY GET TO SEE RHEAGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ser Gerold Dayne
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:27 am

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:05 am

Everything Jaime related it's gonna be pure gold for me.Cannot wait.

User avatar
Jack Bauer 24
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:45 pm

Haven't read spoilers for the finale except NK rides Viserion. Is it going to look wonky?

User avatar
Stark Wolf
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:16 pm

Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:51 pm

Interesting to read I'm not the only one who has noticed from the beginning that D&D add extra meat to their favorite actors. There isn't enough time or space to list all those grievances. One that glares this season, Sophie over Masie and diminished Tyrion..........Squeaky wheel theory still works well.

Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of Sansa/Sophie as well as Arya/ Masie. Just not great story telling anytime they make out of character, character changes, because they favor or disfavor certain actors.

Only a small mild rant..... :D

Dyanna
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:08 am

Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:41 pm

Jack Bauer 24 wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:45 pm
Haven't read spoilers for the finale except NK rides Viserion. Is it going to look wonky?
Go and read it then and make your own mind up. I've a feeling you know all the answers to your endless questions :roll:

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