Complete overview of Episode 7

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Violator
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:14 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:55 pm

ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:15 pm
elybe wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:40 am


I'd normally be more upset that D&D think the same Jon who had zero trouble lying to Mance Rayder and Ygritte in order to betray them later and who consulted with Maester Aemon before making decisions at the Wall suddenly can't put his honesty on hold for two seconds or fill anyone in on his decisions, because fuck character consistency, but I think reading the other outlines may have desensitized me to their MO somewhat. Okay, so their plan actually was to have Jon come across as ruining everything with his Nedness in the Pit, even though Jon had no issue lying when he deemed it necessary prior to Season 6. On the bright side, it must be pretty exciting for Kit Harington to find out which one of Jon's multiple personalities he'll get to portray from week to week.

I feel like D&D have completely forgotten all the work they did on Jon in seasons 4 and 5. They now seem to think he is nothing more than Ned 2.0 . IDK if it's laziness or they have just lost nterest in his character. At this point, I have resigned myself to see Jon blundering his way to the end.

Well tbh, if he should ever learn of his birthright, he may consider that allowing the woman whose family oversaw the destruction of his mother's family to remain on the throne that belonged to his father's family is not something that he can swallow.

He may not want to be king, but he couldn't easily say the IT has nothing to do with him anymore.
Last edited by Violator on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

elybe
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:13 am
All that stuff suggesting Tyrion was jealous of Jon? I'm glad they cut that out!
I'm having a hard time getting a read on where they're going with Tyrion at this point. It seems to turn on a dime. The outlines make it look like they were considering a J/D/T love triangle at some point, but in the aired material Tyrion doesn't seem bothered by Jonerys at all...until boatsex. Does he have feelings for her after all? Are they trying to imply that he thinks Dany's spontaneity may be her downfall, and that her feelings for Jon amplify that (See: her risking everything to save him)? Are they setting up an eventual betrayal on his part? Is there any significance to pairing his reaction with the reveal of Jon's legitimacy? I don't know how much to read into Tyrion's behavior, because while D&D are anything but subtle, they don't always follow through on their setups if it doesn't directly impact the endgame.
Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:08 pm
Further proof of how much they love trashing Jon to prop up their faves. It is such a shame they are doing this to such a great character.
I think they'd be doing it regardless. They've gone to town on him ever since they ran out of book material. Forget being unrecognizable from his book counterpart, the way they’ve written him in these outlines isn't even consistent with his previous actions on the show. They've pulled a few punches in the final scripts, and the staging and editing has helped, but their first instincts for him are terrifying. And let me clarify before the "Ughhhh, Jon Superfans again" wrist slaps commence, yes, I'm aware they do this shit to other characters, too. Still not sorry.
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:15 pm
I feel like D&D have completely forgotten all the work they did on Jon in seasons 4 and 5. They now seem to think he is nothing more than Ned 2.0 . IDK if it's laziness or they have just lost nterest in his character. At this point, I have resigned myself to see Jon blundering his way to the end.
I'm pretty sure they were never interested in his character, but I think this is a consequence of not having GRRM's books to work off of. I'm with you in resigning myself to the likelihood that Jon will never be allowed to look competent or make a sound decision ever again now that he's fully in their hands. I just have to wonder how far they intend to take it, because I'm pretty sure that if GRRM plans for Jon to die in the end, he doesn't plan for the readers to come away thinking, "He had it coming." Nor do I think he intends for Jon to simply fall into a kingship because all the better rulers had less plot armor.

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trarecar
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:48 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:10 pm

Her miscarriage is important because she likely thought the prophecy maybe wasn't true. Now she knows she will die at the hands of a brother.

Dyanna
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:08 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm

It's some years since I read the books but I remember Jon as being intelligent and insightful. Am I misremembering or something? I get the hero side on screen and the humility and honesty but I'm missing the other side of him. I don't recall him being blind to the politics.

My memory is pretty rubbish though :oops:

Pigeon
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:44 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:33 pm

Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:00 am
Euron asks if they can swim and when he hears that they cannot, he announces he’s taking his fleet back to the Iron Islands.
This is going to make me laugh out loud. :lol:

BeardedOnion
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:36 pm

Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm
It's some years since I read the books but I remember Jon as being intelligent and insightful. Am I misremembering or something? I get the hero side on screen and the humility and honesty but I'm missing the other side of him. I don't recall him being blind to the politics.

My memory is pretty rubbish though :oops:
He's very much blind to politics,he was pretty retarded in ADWD, even a blind man could see the issues rising up around him.

I'm not a super Jon fan myself (though I really do like him) but I sympathize with them when he does do dumb things for no good reason at times. I don't think his character is close to ruined though, I think this season he's been level headed mostly, pragmatic and pretty impressive. He's the guy in the right here while Dany and the rest focused on petty shit.

The thing you need to understand is Jon's going to be THE main guy at the end. He's going to be king, the hero, the legendary figure of the story when the dust settles. Ultimately he's going to get the lion's share of glory in this story and Dany is very, VERY likely being set up to be a tragic character who dies for whatever reason, ultimately never sitting on the throne. They are nervous as hell about making him the guy who always wins and always has the spotlight which is why certain characters sometimes steal it, IE Dany this season at times. She's not going to end nearly as high as Jon and they want her to have some glory while she still can.

The audience still loves and respects Jon despite the issues and in the end, all will be right and Jon will be where he rightly belongs. If I can trust any character to be given proper justice in the end, it's him, no question.

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Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:52 pm

Dyanna wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:14 pm
It's some years since I read the books but I remember Jon as being intelligent and insightful. Am I misremembering or something? I get the hero side on screen and the humility and honesty but I'm missing the other side of him. I don't recall him being blind to the politics.

My memory is pretty rubbish though :oops:
He is very intelligent and insightful. In the books he advises Stannis on how to conduct his campaign in the North and how to deal with the Northern families. He's very much aware of politics, especially in the North: he marries off Alys Karstark to a Thenn ruler so they can retake Karhold and creates a new House, tries to integrate the Wildlings into the NW and manages the tense relationships between the NW-Wildlings-Selyse' men (iirc), sends Sam to the Citadel to train (in the show they gave that idea to Sam), solidifies his authority by executing Slynt, sends Mance to rescue fArya from Winterfell, maps out Stannis' war campaign and helps him gain the mountain clans as allies, mans the castles at the Wall with wildling men and spearwives, takes Wildling hostages, negotiates a loan with the Iron Bank to see the NW through winter. He's also busy making sure the NW has enough supplies and iirc he was planning a ranging Beyond the Wall.

People just focus on his assassination and use that to say he's terrible at leading/ruling/politics, while conveniently ignoring the assassination attempts the likes of Tyrion and Dany had and that they only survived with someone's help. :roll: It's pretty telling that in the books, the mutineers only manage to get to him in the spur of the moment and when Jon is distracted by Wun Wun iirc. Jon could have led the NW perfectly and he STILL would have been killed off because GRRM needs him out of his vows. Fortunately, he created a storyline where Jon learns how to lead and does some things right and some things wrong, as expected from anyone in a leadership position.

If there's one big mistake I think he made was putting all his eggs in Stannis' basket and in such a visible way, without a backup plan should Stannis die. He refuses to entertain the possibility that Stannis might lose because he wants the Boltons defeated so badly. Which is why imo Jon will be drawn into the fighting in the North once he's back.
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:15 pm


I feel like D&D have completely forgotten all the work they did on Jon in seasons 4 and 5. They now seem to think he is nothing more than Ned 2.0 . IDK if it's laziness or they have just lost nterest in his character. At this point, I have resigned myself to see Jon blundering his way to the end.
Like Elybe said, they've never had an interest in his character to begin with.

The one they obviously lost interest in now is Tyrion imo.
elybe wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Now I'm wondering just how much of GRRM's ending D&D will actually include (especially as far as Jon is concerned). They've diverged so drastically from book AND show canon, that I wouldn't be surprised to hear they changed their mind and are doing their own ending. What GRRM has in mind might not even fit the characters on the show anymore, for all we know. At this point, what use is all of the buildup about Jon's background when the character is getting trashed like this...

I wish they had just let him go south in season 6 and live his life like he wanted to. It would have been a much more dignified ending than whatever it is they're doing now.
Last edited by Flayed Potatoes on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pigeon
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:44 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:54 pm

Although I adore Aidan Gillen, love Littlefinger, and generally cannot stand Sansa, it's really a great end for his character. Hoisted in his own petard, as it were. The fact that it took Bran to take him down at least doesn't insult how cunningly he's played the game. I don't care for the bit of him begging on his knees (everyone else will love it) as I don't see him as a coward, but whatever.

Theon's scene, and Jaime riding North alone...goosebumps. Finally, Jaime. Finally.

I'm assuming we'll be waiting to Season 8 to see if Tormund and Beric are confirmed casualties?

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Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:59 pm

Pigeon wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:54 pm
Although I adore Aidan Gillen, love Littlefinger, and generally cannot stand Sansa, it's really a great end for his character. Hoisted in his own petard, as it were. The fact that it took Bran to take him down at least doesn't insult how cunningly he's played the game. I don't care for the bit of him begging on his knees (everyone else will love it) as I don't see him as a coward, but whatever.

Theon's scene, and Jaime riding North alone...goosebumps. Finally, Jaime. Finally.

I'm assuming we'll be waiting to Season 8 to see if Tormund and Beric are confirmed casualties?
I think I read somewhere that Tormund makes it south to warn everyone, but I might be wrong. There are so many leaks nowadays, it's hard to keep track. :lol:

Pigeon
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:44 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:59 pm
Pigeon wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:54 pm
Although I adore Aidan Gillen, love Littlefinger, and generally cannot stand Sansa, it's really a great end for his character. Hoisted in his own petard, as it were. The fact that it took Bran to take him down at least doesn't insult how cunningly he's played the game. I don't care for the bit of him begging on his knees (everyone else will love it) as I don't see him as a coward, but whatever.

Theon's scene, and Jaime riding North alone...goosebumps. Finally, Jaime. Finally.

I'm assuming we'll be waiting to Season 8 to see if Tormund and Beric are confirmed casualties?
I think I read somewhere that Tormund makes it south to warn everyone, but I might be wrong. There are so many leaks nowadays, it's hard to keep track. :lol:
It is! Makes my brain hurt (not that that's difficult!)

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