So how could S7 have been improved?

WotW Spoiler Town, with extensive Game of Thrones Season 7 Spoilers including major leaks, filming spoilers, photos and all. Consider yourself warned!
User avatar
Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:43 am

ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:06 am


Excellent points all round, especially about the Jon Dany romance. All the talk was about her, about how good she is. What exactly did Dany know about Jon to make her fall in love with him? His earnestness in his belief of a threat that she herself did not take seriously? Or was it the brooding? Lol.
It's quite clear which character D&D care about most in that relationship. :roll: I'm sure they'll find a way to make the R+L=J reveal all about her too, just like they made Jon becoming KITN all about Sansa's butthurt and not at all about Jon finally overcoming his bastard status and achieving recognition from the North as a true Stark. I'm sure the scenes in season 8 in Winterfell will all be about how good she is too lol. I'm seriously wondering what exactly did Dany learn about Jon in all these conversations they had together. I guess that he got some mean scars on his chest, but there's no talk about how that went about of course. :lol:

I can't believe they sat down to write those scripts and there was no mention of Jon's relationship with Maester Aemon. Jon can mention Jeor to Jorah and Lyanna Mormont, but he can't mention Aemon to Dany? LOL

They could have done so much more with Jaime's character too. There's just so much complexity in that character worth exploring, but they'll just stick to calling him the stupidest Lannister because reasons. :? The sad thing is he's probably going to die next season and his final arc might not be enough to redeem all the seasons where the show regressed his character :(

ghost of winterfell
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:33 am

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:05 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:43 am
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:06 am


Excellent points all round, especially about the Jon Dany romance. All the talk was about her, about how good she is. What exactly did Dany know about Jon to make her fall in love with him? His earnestness in his belief of a threat that she herself did not take seriously? Or was it the brooding? Lol.
It's quite clear which character D&D care about most in that relationship. :roll: I'm sure they'll find a way to make the R+L=J reveal all about her too, just like they made Jon becoming KITN all about Sansa's butthurt and not at all about Jon finally overcoming his bastard status and achieving recognition from the North as a true Stark. I'm sure the scenes in season 8 in Winterfell will all be about how good she is too lol. I'm seriously wondering what exactly did Dany learn about Jon in all these conversations they had together. I guess that he got some mean scars on his chest, but there's no talk about how that went about of course. :lol:

I can't believe they sat down to write those scripts and there was no mention of Jon's relationship with Maester Aemon. Jon can mention Jeor to Jorah and Lyanna Mormont, but he can't mention Aemon to Dany? LOL

They could have done so much more with Jaime's character too. There's just so much complexity in that character worth exploring, but they'll just stick to calling him the stupidest Lannister because reasons. :? The sad thing is he's probably going to die next season and his final arc might not be enough to redeem all the seasons where the show regressed his character :(
Oh I am pretty sure that the RLJ reveal will be all about Jon's relationship with Dany and her reaction to him having a better claim lmao. Jon will probably brood for 5 minutes, till someone says the magic words "you don't have to choose Jon, you are a Stark, and you are a Targaryen". Boom problem solved! Of course it may also lead to him bonding with Rhaegal, let's see.

This season, I can think of so many topics they could have talked about, Maester Aemon obviously. Or he could have talked about Winterfell, growing up there, his bond with his siblings. This would have affected Dany too, given her own problemtic relationship with Viserys. Or he could mention Ghost, the mythical beast that he has, during all the dragon talk. It would have been an opportunity to tell Dany and the audience, the nature of his bond with Ghost. They have never been able to show this, they could have taken this opportunity to at least talk about it!

Poor Jaime! He was the casualty for Cersei's increased prominence in the show. I love to watch Cersei and her antics, but I am soo happy that he is finally away from her! Jaime always shines when he is away from Cersei (Dorne being an exception) so I hope they come up with some satisfying interactions for him next season,which give his arc meaning. I want to see him interact with people other than just Brienne, mainly Tyrion, Dany, Bran and Jon. It's notable that Jaime is the only one amongst the Winterfell group who knew Rhaegar, so there is opportunity for some interesting interactions with Jon. D&D pls :)

User avatar
Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:54 pm

ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:05 pm
Isn't it hilarious yet sad that we can tell exactly how D&D will write the R+L=J reveal and what lines they'll recycle? Maybe D&D will surprise us :P :lol:

Watch the Bran/Jaime scene be like: 1. Jaime apologizes, 2. Bran says in a monotone voice he's no longer upset about what Jaime did to him, 3. Jaime is confused and freaked out, 4. Bran thanks him because if he hadn't pushed him from the tower he wouldn't have become the 3 eyed raven, 5. Jaime's like "I don't know what that means." :lol: :lol:

Your suggestions regarding the discussion topics were exactly the things I wanted to see this season but didn't. They even cut the scene where Jon says goodbye to Ghost and that should tell us enough about how they view his character.

Jon/Jaime talking about Rhaegar and Jaime realizing that all the snarks and grumpkins rumors he mocked back in s1 are true are scenes I would love to see. But I'm not going to be very optimistic about that.

I love both Cersei and Jaime, but I am happy Jaime is finally independent lol. Both of them shine separately from each other imo (and especially when they are acting alongside Tyrion/Peter).

Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:44 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:54 pm
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:05 pm
Isn't it hilarious yet sad that we can tell exactly how D&D will write the R+L=J reveal and what lines they'll recycle?
It's not sad, it's normal that after 7 seasons you know what to expect from the writers. That means they have consistent style.

SerJorahIsTheMan
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:58 am

Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:34 am

Violator wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:50 pm
Now, I'm not starting this thread because I'm heavily critical of this season. In fact, I have mixed feelings about it, but I do think it had weaknesses that could be discussed and seeing as we have nothing better to do, how would/ could the following have been improved?

(1) The Winterfell Plot

(2) 'Robo-Bran'

(3) Fast travelling

(4) The Wight Hunt

(5) Jon and Dany's romance

Just to clarify, I'm not saying these are or aren't areas of weakness but they have been widely identified here and elsewhere as being so.

You've already identified some really good ones. I'll add my list:

6) Complete waste of a great character with Littlefinger in seasons 6 and 7.
7) Jaime sticking with Cersei for far too long. It made him look stupid. His portrayal is done far better in the books.
8) Sticking with Vladimir Furdik and not going back to Richard Brake (Season 5) was a big mistake. Brake was a far more menacing Night King and Furdik just seems wooden to me. It would have made for a far more compelling S07E06.

Season 6 was at least a tie for my favorite of the show. Aside from Arya's duel with Waif, I loved every episode in Season 6. Season 7 was good, but didn't measure up to 6. Seasons 1-4 were all great, and I thought (with the exception of Hardhome - second only to Winds of Winter) Season 5 was weak.

How could Season 7 have been better? The biggest problem I had was the entire Winterfell plot, which was a complete mess. I didn't like the whining from Sansa in Season 6, and then in Season 7 she actually got what she wanted - control of Winterfell. Then Arya returns home and I completely failed to understand why there had to be tension between her and Sansa. And the show utterly failed to make the tension compelling. The one thing I would have grasped was Arya questioning why Littlefinger was still around, and the show never really addressed that. They fixed it in the finale, but Arya/Sansa was crap the entire season.

Bran was also awful. They ditched Meera, a favorite that I don't think anyone would have wanted to disappear. They could have made great use of Bran's flashback ability throughout the season and it never happened. They could have used Season 7 for Bran to give a full rundown of snippets from Robert's Rebellion, starting with the Tourney at Harrenhal, to explain the progression of Rhaegar/Lyanna. We got nothing except for a half-assed 30 second clip in the finale. Bran was boring the entire season and he really didn't teach us anything. He was even wrong about Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna until Sam told him what he knew.

I don't think anyone would argue that Littlefinger was completely wasted in Seasons 6 and 7. This is a guy who went from nothing to nearly Warden of the North, and it's never fully explained why he stayed in Winterfell for so long. The second Jon threw him against a wall and threatened his life, he should have tucked tail and ran back to the Vail with his army. Instead he followed Sansa around like a puppy dog, getting ignored and chastised by her. Made no sense to me. And if that wasn't enough, Bran even called him out saying "Chaos is a ladder." Littlefinger was a lot smarter than that, and I hope the books does a better job of his demise.

The whole idea of hunting for a wight to prove it to Cersei was dumb. Yes, I know why it had to be done, to give the NK a dragon to blast the wall, but it was an insane risk for a crazy woman who everyone knows had no intention of teaming up. It would have been one thing if it was Cersei's idea, like "Hey guys, if you're serious about an armistice, go get one of them and bring it to King's Landing." But no, Tyrion suggested it. Bad writing. I did like the episode, since it introduced the Brotherhood guys to Jon and it was very cool to see the Hound, Beric, Thoros, Tormund and Jorah fight alongside Jon.

There were some things that worked very well in Season 7. The season was dominated by Jon and Daeny and their budding relationship, and I thought that part was done very well. I enjoyed every scene they had together, and Drogon charging at Jon and sniffing him out in that one scene was awesome. It would have been even better if Rhaegal was part of that scene. The Spoils of War was a fantastic episode. I don't know if it was intended, but Spoils of War was the best one of the season, outshining Beyond the Wall. The scenes of Drogon flaming the wagon train and the Lannisters was shot beautifully.

Winterfell is what kept Season 7 from being great. There were a lot of things I liked, but Bran/Arya/Sansa really disappointed me and I couldn't wait for those scenes to end. And I was angry about wasting Littlefinger.

User avatar
evenwind
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:10 pm

There was a lot that didn't work for me, Sansa/Arya and the Wight Hunt in particular. But one thing that could have been easily improved was the invitee list at the Dragon Pit. They had exactly one wight available to convince potential allies. Why not invite more bannermen from all over Westeros? And, more importantly, why not have some maesters in the audience? The maesters aren't going to take defrocked Qyburn's word for anything but surely if a couple of maesters from the surrrounding area were there to see, the word could have gotten back to the Citadel and the Citadel could have called out all the banners, just as Archmaester Ebrose described to Sam.

Stormborn
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:22 pm

Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:33 pm

Violator wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:50 pm
Now, I'm not starting this thread because I'm heavily critical of this season. In fact, I have mixed feelings about it, but I do think it had weaknesses that could be discussed and seeing as we have nothing better to do, how would/ could the following have been improved?

(1) The Winterfell Plot

(2) 'Robo-Bran'

(3) Fast travelling

(4) The Wight Hunt

(5) Jon and Dany's romance

Just to clarify, I'm not saying these are or aren't areas of weakness but they have been widely identified here and elsewhere as being so.
(1) The Winterfell plot was a severe casualty of the shows overall problem balancing pacing and narrative this season. Once Jon left for Dragonstone he effectively sucked the oxygen out of Winterfell which felt like extremely dull filler at times. There wasn't much happening with Jon away and that is reflected in the depiction whether we liked it or not.The main events were the reunions, LF's death, Meera leaving and Sam arriving. Operating under the same budget, time and episode number constraints it's hard to know what could have been done differently without needing more time. Would it have been more interesting if we had seen Bran give instructions for his new chair to be made and then receiving it? No. It wasn't necessary either. Did we need to see Gilly settled into her rooms, making small talk with Sansa, whilst Sam was with Bran? Again, no. It wasn't necessary and the show focused mainly on what was necessary to the evolving events.

More screen time or interactions between the Starks and LF would'nt have really helped either. The moment Bran said "chaos is a ladder" then a character like LF would do exactly as he did which was to become spooked and give Bran a wide birth because he wasn't useful to LF and couldn't be manipulated. There's possibly one thing which might have improved Winterfell but again it would've needed more screen time and that would've been bringing Sam's arrival forward.

(2) Robo-Bran may well have seemed like he wasn't doing much but he made some good progress. He can warg into multiple creatures at a time e.g. the ravens flying to the wall and he can step into visions at will without touching a Weirwood tree now. The show didn't use any dialogue to make this obvious so it was easy to miss in a passive watching sort of way. If Sam arrived an episode earlier, then as someone to bounce off and interact with, he could've made Bran's progress with his abilities more obvious and interesting to the viewer.

(3) Fast travelling - I didn't have a problem with this because I picked up the cue, from the death of Thoros of Myr, that they had all been stranded overnight. So it seemed reasonable that Gendry could get to Eastwatch, send a raven and Daenerys fly back to them. All that scene needed was an extra line or two, a few yawns and stretches with slower movement from the actors (like people just waking up) to make it more obvious. Job done!

(4) I've no problem with the Wight hunt. It served a purpose and the ensuing battle for the dawn should be epic with dragons on opposing sides.

(5) That's definitely something that needed more time. The acting was poor and the romance not very believable. i just don't buy into it and that's not good.

Overall, I would've liked 10 episodes. However, the only scene of note that was cut, which was between Bronn and Tyrion, wouldn't have made up the time.

Violator
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:14 pm

Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:44 am

I agree that the biggest casualty of this season has been the central romance and it's serious because it may well end up being the central romance of the entire story. It's frustrating because it's not that hard to write a growing attraction between two people.

Don't get me wrong, that's not to cheapen the obvious quality of some of the greatest romances in art, but they're exceptional - even soaps manage to create believable attractions between people every other week - it's their bread and butter.

The key to making a growing attraction believable is to start with a challenge. The two characters must immediately dislike one another - and I don't just mean have a cold stand off in a throne room and then you're done. You need them to show a palpable dislike for one another.

From there, build in opportunities for these characters to demonstrate qualities of kindness and affection that were not evident originally and which show us the audience that the other party has reason to warm to them. And one scene on a flight if steps isn't enough.

Most importantly, the most vital things you need to develop between two characters is vulnerability and intimacy. That means you allow the characters to reveal their flaws, their fears, and their desires in places where they are alone together.

The scene where Jon is in bed is probably the closest they came to something like that. For once, Dany had dropped 'the imperiousness' she uses every time she delivers her lines, and sounded scared, hurt and genuinely like a normal person. I asked one or two friends who are no fans of Dany and it seems that they genuinely warmed to her in thus scene because she sounded like a normal person. Likewise, Jon spoke about his father to Jorah and thus really should have been something he'd shared with Dany after she'd shown an interest. He should have told her how Cat resented him and how he sometimes felt like the world would have been better had he not been born. In response, Dany could have said he was mistaken - that there is something special about him and even if he can't see it, others do - "I do".

She never really had any opportunities like that really.

And as for that clumsy 'Dany' line, why didn't they build some context for it? For example, in the same scene, Dany is saying how she doesn't regret going beyond the wall because she knows what's coming. In the following episode, she says she should have trusted him from the beginning.

They could have incorporated that line into the boat scene. Dany would tell Jon that she should have trusted him from the beginning. Jon could have said, 'If I were you, I wouldn't have believed it. How could you know?' In response, Dany could have laughed bitterly and recounted the story of her namesake 'Dany the Dreamer' and how she wished she had that gift of foresight. Then, when Dany finally pledges to help Jon he could reply 'Thank you Dany'.

Anyway, I've over thought this too much but it's left me disappointed.

User avatar
Grandmaester Flash
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:54 pm
Location: England

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:01 am

Why is this in Quarantine?

I thought Quarantine was for discussing spoilers, and we are long past that for S7.

Dame of Mercia
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:43 am

Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:01 am

I think the season could have done with more episodes to develop the story. As there were some wight giants why not have wight giants carrying some chains? I know some people had concerns that the provenance chains used to pull Viserion's body from the pool was not obvious.

As we are now nearing the end game I'm taking the show for what it is. It may be that Messrs. Benioff and Weiss are more adept at adapting material than creating brand new matter but when they signed up to the project they did think that Mr Martin would have completed the whole saga of ASOIAF so for my part I am not too judgmental of them. This late in the story the plot does need to be driven forward. I didn't hate AFFC or ADWD but I did feel the plot moved slowly at times, though one of the slow bits (Brienne's travels) did serve to bring out the trials and tribulations of the general population.

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests