Dany - Villain? Savior? Something else?

Home of Spoiler-Free Unsullied Discussion of Game of Thrones!
User avatar
Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:45 pm

Chilli wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:09 am
I think it reinforced her character as justified and a good leader. But if you play the game of thrones you win or you die. It was Ned Starks mercy that killed Robert and started the war.
In our world it would be wrong to kill people for disobeying you, but in the world of Westeros that's how it works. Jon knows that too, that's why he killed Janos Slynt. And Ollie and Alliser Thorne for killing him. If you appear weak, people won't respect you.
Both Jon and Dany have a soft side too and care for the people, that's the difference with people like Tywin and Roose Bolton who only care for themself or their legacy.
The problem with Dany is her PR because of her father who was known as the mad king and everyone in Westeros always reminds her of that. That's why Olenna's advise was not good, it's going to work against her if she's too much a dragon.
Definitely, we have to afford the context of the world and what is asked of people for survival and gaining the power to do more good.

User avatar
Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:21 pm
Not Littlefinger wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:26 am
I don't hate Dany. I don't think she's an antagonist. But, I also don't consider her to be a protagonist. I think that she, like most characters in the show, is a morally complex individual who thinks that their intentions are inherently the most noble and, while that might be the case, cause them to engage in morally ambiguous and misguided behavior.
You misunderstand what a protagonist is. It is not a person you like or a good guy (gal) or something like that. A protagonist is a character who's dynamic development (that is, how much he/she changes after the storyteller initially fleshes out the character) shapes the story. It can be objectively defined: it is not down to our subjective whims. Indeed, most protagonists in modern literature are not very likable people: antiheroes are much more common than people with heroic tendencies or something like that when we look at modern protagonists.

One of GRRM's biggest influences is William Faulkner. Faulkner was one of the real innovators at generating protagonists who were not very likable people: and a big reason for that is people at odds with themselves often are unlikable, and Faulkner (like Martin) found internal conflict to be one of the greatest sources of story.

You mention Jaime as an antagonist, but Jaime, too, is a protagonist in this series. Cersei, who is pretty damned vile (although no more vile than the protagonists in a couple of Booker nominees in recent years!) is a protagonist, too.
I'm glad you clarified this and brought in some great lit info.

I just assumed NLF meant hero.

User avatar
Wimsey
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:12 am

Raeslewolhn wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 pm
I just assumed NLF meant hero.
Ah! Agreed, she's not a hero. Daenerys can be heroic, as can Jon: but heroes really reflect a very different basic type of storytelling. (Harry Potter was a "heroic" protagonist, too: but they are "heroic" in the same way you or I would be if we saved a kitten or something like that.)

So, protagonist yes, and even antagonist yes (for herself!), but heroine, nope!
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

User avatar
Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:01 am

Wimsey wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:12 am
Raeslewolhn wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 pm
I just assumed NLF meant hero.
Ah! Agreed, she's not a hero. Daenerys can be heroic, as can Jon: but heroes really reflect a very different basic type of storytelling. (Harry Potter was a "heroic" protagonist, too: but they are "heroic" in the same way you or I would be if we saved a kitten or something like that.)

So, protagonist yes, and even antagonist yes (for herself!), but heroine, nope!
Maybe in the sense of classic literature. But here's an almost exhaustive list of Tropes used to make heroes heroes. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroTropes

User avatar
Wimsey
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:19 am

The "hero" thing can get tricky! The strictest definition of "Hero" requires that the good-guy die in the end as a result of his/her death. This comes up sometimes when people discuss Greek stories, as there are no true female heroes: the closest one dies temporarily, but then basically has her heroinship revoked by being brought back.

When people discuss Lord of the Rings, some argue that Sam fits one of the Hero categories as he actually rejects the Ring. (A true Hero has to reject evil completely at some point.) Frodo succumbs, which means that he is not a hero. Aragorn never is tempted by the Ring (although some Tolkien fans try to turn Aragorn's first meeting with Frodo into that: but as Tolkien wrote that with Trotter the Hobbit and a ring that was not The Ring, and as there had been no real circumstance where the Ring could have seduced Aragorn at that point, the argument really does not fly.) Faramir does: but he's too peripheral to the story to fit. So, LotR has neither protagonists nor heroes in some peoples' minds!

That list seems to be what one might call "lower case" heroes: i.e., characters in stories similar to those that we'd call heroic in real life. (That is a really good list, too, by the way.) Daenerys, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, etc., all fit one or more of these tropes quite well. However, "hero" here now is part of the adjective, not part of the noun.

(And, of course, every protagonist in SoI&F fits the "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... WorstEnemy" category! In a lot of ways, the #1 antagonist for every SoI&F protagonist is him/herself, particularly in the Crows/Dragons story.)

heh, so, we need to be careful: are we talking about Heroes (!Hercules! !Achilles!), heroes (Samwise!), the heroic (Jon Snow; Harry Potter), or a David Bowie song? :lol:
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

User avatar
Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:15 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:19 am
The "hero" thing can get tricky! The strictest definition of "Hero" requires that the good-guy die in the end as a result of his/her death. This comes up sometimes when people discuss Greek stories, as there are no true female heroes: the closest one dies temporarily, but then basically has her heroinship revoked by being brought back.

When people discuss Lord of the Rings, some argue that Sam fits one of the Hero categories as he actually rejects the Ring. (A true Hero has to reject evil completely at some point.) Frodo succumbs, which means that he is not a hero. Aragorn never is tempted by the Ring (although some Tolkien fans try to turn Aragorn's first meeting with Frodo into that: but as Tolkien wrote that with Trotter the Hobbit and a ring that was not The Ring, and as there had been no real circumstance where the Ring could have seduced Aragorn at that point, the argument really does not fly.) Faramir does: but he's too peripheral to the story to fit. So, LotR has neither protagonists nor heroes in some peoples' minds!

That list seems to be what one might call "lower case" heroes: i.e., characters in stories similar to those that we'd call heroic in real life. (That is a really good list, too, by the way.) Daenerys, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, etc., all fit one or more of these tropes quite well. However, "hero" here now is part of the adjective, not part of the noun.

(And, of course, every protagonist in SoI&F fits the "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... WorstEnemy" category! In a lot of ways, the #1 antagonist for every SoI&F protagonist is him/herself, particularly in the Crows/Dragons story.)

heh, so, we need to be careful: are we talking about Heroes (!Hercules! !Achilles!), heroes (Samwise!), the heroic (Jon Snow; Harry Potter), or a David Bowie song? :lol:
Haha. Were def talking Bowie song :P ... jp

I'm actually taking ancient lit right now, mostly were studying the Greeks. I def see what you mean.

But in our modern world I prefer to use visual media norms rather than literary ones. As you said, most of our heroes are antiheroes. They all fit the my own worst enemy trope too, but I consider Dany, Tyrion and Jon all heroes. Maybe Dany is an antihero, but those dragons have GOT to serve the purpose of helping defeat the WW, the closest to true evil in this world. Jon is 100% hero and Tyrion has proven himself antihero, imHo

User avatar
Not Littlefinger
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:24 pm
Location: Ohio

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:16 pm

Raeslewolhn wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 pm
I'm glad you clarified this and brought in some great lit info.

I just assumed NLF meant hero.
That's pretty much what I meant. I know that "protagonist" doesn't equal "hero," though I had always though of them as similar.

User avatar
Not Littlefinger
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:24 pm
Location: Ohio

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:20 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:21 pm
Not Littlefinger wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:26 am
I don't hate Dany. I don't think she's an antagonist. But, I also don't consider her to be a protagonist. I think that she, like most characters in the show, is a morally complex individual who thinks that their intentions are inherently the most noble and, while that might be the case, cause them to engage in morally ambiguous and misguided behavior.
You misunderstand what a protagonist is. It is not a person you like or a good guy (gal) or something like that. A protagonist is a character who's dynamic development (that is, how much he/she changes after the storyteller initially fleshes out the character) shapes the story. It can be objectively defined: it is not down to our subjective whims. Indeed, most protagonists in modern literature are not very likable people: antiheroes are much more common than people with heroic tendencies or something like that when we look at modern protagonists.

One of GRRM's biggest influences is William Faulkner. Faulkner was one of the real innovators at generating protagonists who were not very likable people: and a big reason for that is people at odds with themselves often are unlikable, and Faulkner (like Martin) found internal conflict to be one of the greatest sources of story.

You mention Jaime as an antagonist, but Jaime, too, is a protagonist in this series. Cersei, who is pretty damned vile (although no more vile than the protagonists in a couple of Booker nominees in recent years!) is a protagonist, too. (Yes, she's also an antagonist for other protagonists, and even an anti-antagonist for Sansa, but having protagonist B be an antagonist for protagonist A is not uncommon in multiprotagonist stories.)
I know that "protagonist" isn't always "hero" or "favorite character" though I admit I was using the phrase rather loosely. Thanks for sharing that info and clearing it up though!

User avatar
Wimsey
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:45 pm

Not Littlefinger wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:20 pm
I know that "protagonist" isn't always "hero" or "favorite character" though I admit I was using the phrase rather loosely. Thanks for sharing that info and clearing it up though!
Well, "Pedantic Twit" could be my name, given how often I'm called that.... ;)
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

User avatar
Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:55 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:45 pm
Not Littlefinger wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:20 pm
I know that "protagonist" isn't always "hero" or "favorite character" though I admit I was using the phrase rather loosely. Thanks for sharing that info and clearing it up though!
Well, "Pedantic Twit" could be my name, given how often I'm called that.... ;)
It was useful and interesting, and NLF doesn't seem offended, so fair enough :)

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest