The Problem with Winterfell

Jbird
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:00 pm

Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:26 am

arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm


Despite this, Sansa is the FOCAL point in Winterfell. I don't think she should be. Positioning her as the lead--and only lead--of Winterfell and that which everything revolves around was a mistake, in my opinion.

EVERYONE else is reacting to Sansa. EVERYTHING is revolving around Sansa. So everything that we are seeing, hearing, feeling is through Sansa, is because of Sansa, is about Sansa. It started last season by getting Sansa's reunion with Jon (which was fabulous) and was not something I had even the slightest issue with. However, it then continued this season by making the next Stark reunion... again with Bran... about Sansa, through Sansa's eyes. And then Arya was reunited with Sansa first. And Arya's reunion with Bran was after the fact. Sansa had the main reunion just as she had with Jon, and then Bran, and then Arya. And the reunions were about Sansa, from Sansa's point of view. Sansa was the focal point.

Everything going on in Winterfell is ABOUT SANSA. Sansa is such a great leader. Bran's entire story--oh, wait, Bran doesn't have one. Arya is viewing EVERYTHING through a Sansa-lens. Again, everything is through a Sansa-lens. Even that fantastic Arya-Brienne fight scene, as soon as it finished... what did we get? Sansa's point of view. It wasn't for Arya. It was for Sansa (and Littlefinger who is all about... wait for it! Sansa) that the scene was mostly done, not for Arya.

Even the scene with Bran and Arya was barely about Bran and Arya, but rather Sansa reacting to the news that Arya was indeed a killer with a list. Yes, we got Arya getting the dagger... which Sansa reacted to. The thrust of the scene was for Sansa's sake. Other than the Bran/Meera, and the Bran/Littlefinger scenes (and the latter tied into the Littlefinger/Sansa storyline), everything at Winterfell since Jon left--including every single Arya scene--has been about or relating to Sansa. And even the Jon scenes mostly revolved around Sansa.

SANSA, SANSA, SANSA! :D LOL - Brilliant! So true & great observation! The story is being told through Sansa's lens which is what I think you uncovered. WotW posted an article a while back re a casting, a popular British actress, older, tall, w red hair... playing a small GoT part, the article hinted that the actress looks like Sansa in later age & perhaps telling a story which NOW... it all makes sense. Sansa is telling a story.

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arabian
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:35 pm

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:05 pm

I started this thread over a year ago. I just finished a rewatch of the entire series prior to the final season and I wanted to revisit my thoughts here because I was totally wrong. The following are my words and, boy, am I going to disagree with them.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Sansa is the FOCAL point in Winterfell.
No, she is not.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
I don't think she should be.
Well, good, because she's not.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Positioning her as the lead--and only lead--of Winterfell and that which everything revolves around was a mistake, in my opinion.
And my opinion was totes wrong. Booyah! Boy, did I totally misread that. See, here's the thing, I adore Arya, like whoah! And while I really am not anti-Sansa, I am frustrated with how Sansa does seem to have a larger role than Arya in the series. She's been in more episodes (truth), she has more screen time (someone literally counted the screen time and Sophie Turner has the 4th most screen time, while Maisie Williams is in 6th place). As an Arya/Maisie fan, that peeves me. My bias towards Arya/Maisie totally got in the way of accurately reading the story and I actually was the one who ironically diminished Arya's role in the Winterfell story.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
EVERYONE else is reacting to Sansa. EVERYTHING is revolving around Sansa. So everything that we are seeing, hearing, feeling is through Sansa, is because of Sansa, is about Sansa.
Yeah, no, that is not what happened. We see just as much of the story through Arya's point of view as we do Sansa's. It's a joint tale.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
It started last season by getting Sansa's reunion with Jon (which was fabulous) and was not something I had even the slightest issue with. However, it then continued this season by making the next Stark reunion... again with Bran... about Sansa, through Sansa's eyes.
True, enough, but then we saw Arya's reunion through Bran through her eyes. And it made sense because Bran was different and we needed to see both sisters reacting.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
And then Arya was reunited with Sansa first. And Arya's reunion with Bran was after the fact. Sansa had the main reunion just as she had with Jon, and then Bran, and then Arya. And the reunions were about Sansa, from Sansa's point of view. Sansa was the focal point.
Argh! Did I even watch the show?! Arya's reunion with Sansa was totally from Arya's point of view. She showed up to Winterfell, and spoke to the guards and it was even a callback to a scene of hers from season 01. She had her moments looking around Winterfell. When Sansa showed up in the crypt, it was her going TO Arya, not the other way around, and it was from Arya's point of view, not Sansa's. Again, my bad, I was totally wrong.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Everything going on in Winterfell is ABOUT SANSA. Sansa is such a great leader. Littlefinger's machinations are all about Sansa at this point.
Again, nope. Everything going on in Winterfell was about Sansa, and Arya and Jon not being there, and you know, the Starks in Winterfell.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Bran's entire story--oh, wait, Bran doesn't have one.
He doesn't really have one beyond being the Three Eyed Raven, and I'm not happy about that because I do think that Isaac Hempstead Wright is doing a great job, but I think--going back to season five (and his absence)--is simply a matter of a character like this works better on page than screen. Too much budget, too much in his head and not action, and way too much revealed.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Arya's entire storyline is about Sansa.
Actually, Arya's storyline--just like Sansa's--was about Jon and loyalty to the Starks... which is all about the Starks and the whole Ice and Fire concept and Winter is Coming and the Great War to Come, etc. You know, the bigger story. Duh! I really missed the boat.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
It's all about, oh, Arya is being so mean to Sansa. Arya is not talking to Sansa. Arya doesn't know what she's going through, and what she has gone through.
God, no. Seriously, what was I thinking?!? Ugh!!!
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
And this is true! Because that is how the story is being positioned. Arya is viewing EVERYTHING through a Sansa-lens.
No, she was not. Seriously, honestly... what was I thinking?! I wonder if I was reading a lot of Sansa-hate-a-thon tumblr posts or something while and/or after watching the season to come to this so very wrong conclusion?
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
There is no Arya-based arc that allows for viewers to feel for her, to get that she's doing this, she's like this because of what she's gone through.
Now, this I do agree with. On the other hand, the same can be said for Sansa. I wouldn't have minded a bit more bonding between the girls after all was said done but we did get that lovely final scene with them.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Again, everything is through a Sansa-lens.
No, it was NOT! I kept repeating this over and over in this post as if that made it true. It did not. I was wrong. It so was not the case. For instance, this...
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Even that fantastic Arya-Brienne fight scene, as soon as it finished... what did we get? Sansa's point of view. It wasn't for Arya. It was for Sansa (and Littlefinger who is all about... wait for it! Sansa) that the scene was mostly done, not for Arya.
W - R - O - N - G! The scene began with Arya approaching Brienne. Yes, Sansa and Littlefinger watched, then Sansa walked away, Arya looked up at Littlefinger, he did his Littlefinger smirk/smile, and then the scene ended (that's right ENDED!) on Arya's point of view looking at Littlefinger.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Even the scene with Bran and Arya was barely about Bran and Arya, but rather Sansa reacting to the news that Arya was indeed a killer with a list. Yes, we got Arya getting the dagger... which Sansa reacted to. The thrust of the scene was for Sansa's sake.
No, it wasn't. It was about Arya and Bran, and the Stark siblings. Geez!
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Other than the Bran/Meera, and the Bran/Littlefinger scenes (and the latter tied into the Littlefinger/Sansa storyline), everything at Winterfell since Jon left--including every single Arya scene--has been about or relating to Sansa. And even the Jon scenes mostly revolved around Sansa.
Nope, nope, nope! It was all about the Stark siblings, and the Stark name, and loyalty to Jon as King in the North. I am such a doofus!
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
I'm not saying that Sansa shouldn't be important, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be seeing her story arc play out as well because we definitely should, but having her be the sole focal point and the only reason for Arya and, at this point (well, with only one episode left, it might as well be), Bran to even have a story is ridiculous.
Yeah, it really would be ridiculous, good thing that didn't actually happen.
arabian wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 pm
...a clunky, illogical, disappointing story
That's another thing... watching the season in one fell swoop, it actually wasn't clunky, or illogical or disappointing. It all made sense.

Littlefinger told Sansa the best way to keep ahead of the game is to imagine every scenario good and bad. Then we see him constantly looking around, always aware, always wary. So it makes sense that he sets the trap for Arya. It doesn't mean that she's bad at being a Faceless Man, it just means that Littlefinger is ALWAYS watching, is extremely crazy paranoid and has thought 10, 20 steps ahead... as he told Sansa.

Littlefinger told Sansa I imagine what's the worse thing a person could do, and he starts giving her leading questions about Arya to which she answers: She's here to punish me for betraying my family (reasonable), she'll kill me if I betray Jon (sure). And then whole time she is answering these questions, Sansa is looking down, working these out. And then Littlefinger asks her if she's dead what does Arya become. There's a pause and Sansa looks up, a dawning realization on her face and she says 'Lady of Winterfell.'

When I watched that scene this time around, it was so clear to me that something hit Sansa that something was not right. Arya *never* wanted to be the Lady of Winterfell. Something simply was going on that she was missing and Littlefinger was playing her for a fool. By playing that card with Sansa, he overplayed his hand. And all was explained in the "trial" scene.

Sansa told Littlefinger you turned our mother and Aunt Lysa against each other and tried to do the same with Arya and myself. And Bran made it clear he saw Littlefinger's misdeeds (and Sansa and Arya's lack of reaction to his words made it clear they had already been told) so there was no need to see those scenes beforehand. We were told everything in that trial scene. Seeing the scenes themselves would have diluted what happened; it really would have. Being spoiled to those big beats (as many people who closely follow the show were) did hurt because whether we try to or not, expectations are built. I know it happened for me.

So I take it all back. It was a good story. I was wrong. This is my mea culpa.
Gendry: You shouldn't insult people that are bigger than you are.
Arya: Then I wouldn't get to insult anyone.

LufkinAg
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:22 pm

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:10 pm

arabian wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:52 pm
There is no Arya-based arc that allows for viewers to feel for her, to get that she's doing this, she's like this because of what she's gone through.
Now, this I do agree with. On the other hand, the same can be said for Sansa. I wouldn't have minded a bit more bonding between the girls after all was said done but we did get that lovely final scene with them.

Arya is getting to do what she wants which is to fight with a sword. Ned explained it well to her after the Joffrey ordeal with the butcher boy. The Starks don't have to like each other or agree but when "Winter" comes, they must stick together in order to survive. All the Starks know this truth.

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