Hound Fires

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Ginevra
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Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:44 am

(So I'm going to bring up something that Vanessa has officially written up in a news item but is still a bit spoilerish, so any avidly avoiding everything not in the show may want to run away. Sorry.)

In the Hound's vision, everyone is convinced that he's seeing Eastwatch by the Sea because that's the second-most popular Wall castle, it is right on top of the sea, and it is the castle Jon mentions in this episode asking Tormund to man the Wall castles. But is it really Eastwatch the Hound is seeing?

Here is what the Hound says and was slated to say in the episode after Thoros asks him what he sees, including the line that was dropped from the actual episode but is part of the synopsis on the official GoT website.
http://gameofthrones.com/game-of-throne ... /episode-1 Scroll down and click "Read the Synopsis."
Ice. A Wall of Ice. The Wall...

It's where The Wall meets the sea. The waves are frozen... There's a castle there. There's a mountain. Looks like an arrowhead. The dead are marching past. Thousands of them.
So looking at the map, we can see there aren't mountains by or near Eastwatch. The waves there aren't known to be frozen, as they would be with the Bay of Ice. Note the castle on this western edge of the Wall, Shadow Tower.

Map of the Wall:
Image

Here is a Frostfangs drawing, which to me looks like an arrowhead:
Image

So Shadow Tower is a castle on the Wall near the sea where the waves are frozen and near mountains that are shaped like fangs or arrowheads. While it is true that Eastwatch is more on top of the sea than Shadow Tower, we know that Eastwatch is not near mountains and we don't have reason to suspect the Bay of Seals is frozen like the Bay of Ice.

I do believe the Wall will come down, probably at the end of this season, but I wonder if we may have many wights cross the Bay of Ice before the Wall comes falling down.

Tensor the Mage
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 am

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:09 am

Nice catch! I too had thought only of Eastwatch. If the Night's King and the Army of the Dead are instead going for the Shadow Tower, at least that gives the North and the Night's Watch more time to prepare, as the location of Hardhome was given in dialog as near Skorrold's Point, in the east.

Please note the Wall does not have to fall to fail; it just has to lose the ability to stop the dead from passing through or over it. Brandon bears the Mark of the Night's King, and his passage through the Wall with it may remove the Wall's magical ability to repel the dead.

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Joel Needs a Car
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Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:18 am

I've seen fanart of Eastwatch with a mountain above it, is that correct or "poetic license"?
AKA: Ser Not Appearing in this Series

shah2017
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:38 am

Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:45 am

Ginevra wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:44 am
(So I'm going to bring up something that Vanessa has officially written up in a news item but is still a bit spoilerish, so any avidly avoiding everything not in the show may want to run away. Sorry.)

In the Hound's vision, everyone is convinced that he's seeing Eastwatch by the Sea because that's the second-most popular Wall castle, it is right on top of the sea, and it is the castle Jon mentions in this episode asking Tormund to man the Wall castles. But is it really Eastwatch the Hound is seeing?

Here is what the Hound says and was slated to say in the episode after Thoros asks him what he sees, including the line that was dropped from the actual episode but is part of the synopsis on the official GoT website.
http://gameofthrones.com/game-of-throne ... /episode-1 Scroll down and click "Read the Synopsis."
Ice. A Wall of Ice. The Wall...

It's where The Wall meets the sea. The waves are frozen... There's a castle there. There's a mountain. Looks like an arrowhead. The dead are marching past. Thousands of them.
So looking at the map, we can see there aren't mountains by or near Eastwatch. The waves there aren't known to be frozen, as they would be with the Bay of Ice. Note the castle on this western edge of the Wall, Shadow Tower.

Map of the Wall:
Image

Here is a Frostfangs drawing, which to me looks like an arrowhead:
Image

So Shadow Tower is a castle on the Wall near the sea where the waves are frozen and near mountains that are shaped like fangs or arrowheads. While it is true that Eastwatch is more on top of the sea than Shadow Tower, we know that Eastwatch is not near mountains and we don't have reason to suspect the Bay of Seals is frozen like the Bay of Ice.

I do believe the Wall will come down, probably at the end of this season, but I wonder if we may have many wights cross the Bay of Ice before the Wall comes falling down.
Very interesting and would make sense seeing as the frozen lake they get stranded on (surrounded by Wights) is near Shadow Tower.

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:13 pm

Ginevra wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:44 am
(So I'm going to bring up something that Vanessa has officially written up in a news item but is still a bit spoilerish, so any avidly avoiding everything not in the show may want to run away. Sorry.)

In the Hound's vision, everyone is convinced that he's seeing Eastwatch by the Sea because that's the second-most popular Wall castle, it is right on top of the sea, and it is the castle Jon mentions in this episode asking Tormund to man the Wall castles. But is it really Eastwatch the Hound is seeing?

Here is what the Hound says and was slated to say in the episode after Thoros asks him what he sees, including the line that was dropped from the actual episode but is part of the synopsis on the official GoT website.
http://gameofthrones.com/game-of-throne ... /episode-1 Scroll down and click "Read the Synopsis."
Ice. A Wall of Ice. The Wall...

It's where The Wall meets the sea. The waves are frozen... There's a castle there. There's a mountain. Looks like an arrowhead. The dead are marching past. Thousands of them.
So looking at the map, we can see there aren't mountains by or near Eastwatch. The waves there aren't known to be frozen, as they would be with the Bay of Ice. Note the castle on this western edge of the Wall, Shadow Tower.

Map of the Wall:
Image

Here is a Frostfangs drawing, which to me looks like an arrowhead:
Image

So Shadow Tower is a castle on the Wall near the sea where the waves are frozen and near mountains that are shaped like fangs or arrowheads. While it is true that Eastwatch is more on top of the sea than Shadow Tower, we know that Eastwatch is not near mountains and we don't have reason to suspect the Bay of Seals is frozen like the Bay of Ice.

I do believe the Wall will come down, probably at the end of this season, but I wonder if we may have many wights cross the Bay of Ice before the Wall comes falling down.
You make a great pt. They can change stuff in the show but I'm inclined to think you're right. Hardhome had a cliff but no arrow MTN. I'm looking fwd to seeing how this plays out!

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Ginevra
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:03 pm

Joel Needs a Car wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:18 am
I've seen fanart of Eastwatch with a mountain above it, is that correct or "poetic license"?
Well, it is certainly possible that the show won't follow the books in this minute detail, but the official maps from the books do not show mountains near Eastwatch. Random House has online versions of the official maps, too, and here are all the maps from AGoT and the Wall map from ADwD.

http://www.randomhousebooks.com/wp-cont ... esmaps.pdf

http://www.randomhousebooks.com/wp-cont ... e_wall.jpg

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Joel Needs a Car
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:21 pm

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:40 am

Thanks Ginevra. BTW looks like the Bay of Seals has frozen ;)

Image
AKA: Ser Not Appearing in this Series

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:12 pm

Joel Needs a Car wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:40 am
Thanks Ginevra. BTW looks like the Bay of Seals has frozen ;)

Image
Great spotting that!

Lyannabanna
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:18 am

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:21 am

I LIKE it! Thanks to Ginevra for raising this point—and for the dandy map too! Yes, that Frost Fang looks a LOT like an arrowhead. Maybe Sam's book illustration of Dragonstone does too?

I've wondered all along why the NK and wildings haven't bypassed the wall via this route. For example, Osha's boatload asrrived via Eastwatch. Terrain at western end of The Wall is much more treacherous, fer shur. Even so, it seems do-able.

According to another map, there seems to be a bridge across a gorge formed by the Milkwater River and its tributaries:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7zc7K ... sp=sharing

I read a theory at youtube.com that this gorge is the one seen in an HBO trailer:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7zc7K ... sp=sharing

Passage to Westeros via the gorge would lead to The Bay of Ice/Bear Island, and yet we don't hear lil' Lady Mormont complaining about wilding invasions like the Umbers and Karstarks.

Book Spoiler per the wiki: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Tower
SPOILERSPOILER_SHOW
"Patrols and scouts from the Shadow Tower have to keep a close eye on the surrounding terrain. Though extremely difficult, it is possible to by-pass the Wall by descending through the Gorge and crossing the Bridge of Skulls, or by tracing a dangerous route through the Frostfangs to the west. The Night's Watch has to keep an eye on these routes for signs of wildling activity."
The above spoiler led me to a theory that the WWs and their army fear water, especially salt water. Salt is the name of the Ironborn throne and one of the "born under" hero categories in the story. There is plenty of it at Saltpans, where Arya caught the ship to Bravos:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Saltpans

In this scene of what must be dragonfire in the background, why do the WWs/wights not advance on Jon? Maybe because they must risk crossing seawater that could kill them?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7zc7 ... WtTcUpuems

Of course, D&D may "horizonatally flip" east/west geography north of The Wall to suit the expected Eastwatch scenario and re-orient the gorge to match The Hound's fire vision, etc.

Disclaimer

I have not read the books and don't intend to do so (too time- and mind consuming!). So I'm not concerned with/confused by book "dogma" vs HBO adaptations. Instead, I devour every spoiler and plot leak "out there." I care ONLY about the HBO STORY and ignore critic reviews, cast interviews, etc. with one exception:

Costume design can foretell a great deal about the STORY. For example, it distinguishes Arya's pre-Stark-reunion adventures from what happens after she has the VS Cat's Paw Dagger hyped by EW:
http://watchersonthewall.com/explore-se ... ent-878747

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