Howland Reed?

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Dgskdive
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:30 pm

So after last season we pretty much know that Howland Reed was not the High Sparrow. I never could get behind that theory btw.

What is his deal at this point? I cant believe that he is not important enough to show up in the show this season. I truly think he has a big part to play and I am hoping it isnt just to confirm Jon's parentage. His kids have played to much of an important role for him not to show up at some point.

What do you guys think?

SirBronn
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:43 pm

I don't think there is enough time left to establish another big character, he may turn up for the war against the dead ,but I can't see him playing any major role

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Dgskdive
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:49 pm

Maybe not. but a season and a half is enough time i would think. Hell, Ned only lasted a season. Granted he was pretty much the main character at the time, but he (Howland) could grow on us in a short amount of time

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Wimsey
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Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:04 pm

Dgskdive wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:30 pm
So after last season we pretty much know that Howland Reed was not the High Sparrow. I never could get behind that theory btw.
That was probably the single stupidest fan-conjecture I ever have encountered. All of the evidence for it was either: 1) so indecisive as to be meaningless (e.g., both men were short!); or, 2) pure fan-fiction (the Sparrow being a Northerner, looking like Howland Reed, showing pro-Stark tendencies).
Dgskdive wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:30 pm
What is his deal at this point? I cant believe that he is not important enough to show up in the show this season. I truly think he has a big part to play and I am hoping it isnt just to confirm Jon's parentage. His kids have played to much of an important role for him not to show up at some point.
At this point, I doubt that he'll turn up. (Note: I didn't pay much attention this off season and thus might have missed casting news confirming him; however, a quick Google search shows a miss.) His only obvious role would be to tell Jon who his parents are: but Bran can do that. If there was anything that he could do at this point, then the show should have set it up already. Alternatively, he could show up and do something completely unheralded: but that would be Deus ex Machina, and both the show and the books have (so far) assiduously avoided that.

The fact that his kids played an important role has no bearing on whether Howland will appear. After all, how many characters have played important roles without their parents appearing?

As for Bran, he can convince them easily enough: after all, he is now going to be able to tell other Northerners things about themselves that Bran has no business knowing. If Bran is not pressing any claim (which would be his most obvious selfish reason for fabricating this story), then why would he lie about this after telling Lord Glover what he'd been doing with servant girl or Lord Manderly what he'd been doing with the... well, let's not go there!

Now, it is possible that Reed will appear in the books. After all, it does not seem that Tree Gods have quite the visionary powers in the books that they do on TV: if it didn't happen near a weirwood tree, then they don't record it in the books (or so it seems).
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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Grandmaester Flash
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:11 am

I won't be at all surprised if he appears.
He's been shown and named in the Tower of Joy vision, and recently name-dropped by Meera.
He can authenticate what is possibly the most important of Bran's disclosures.
He won't have been parachuted in from nowhere, and he wouldn't need a lot of screen time

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Wimsey
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:02 pm

Grandmaester Flash wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:11 am
He can authenticate what is possibly the most important of Bran's disclosures.
Actually, Howland Reed cannot authenticate Bran's claim: all he can do is support Bran's claim. Bran has much better means at his disposal of showing how he'd know things because Bran is going to know all sorts of things that he ought not to know.

However, one possibility that I did not consider above is that Ned might have entrusted Howland Reed with the proofs that Lyanna & Rhaegar were married. Those could be documents, or even perhaps the people who were at the Tower of Joy.
That changes not just Jon's parentage, but also his birth status. I had thought that Sam might stumble onto legal documents at the Citadel: after all, as Maester Slughorn stressed, the Citadel basically operates outside of the rest of society, and they'd just sit on the information because, well, what is it to them?

(Of course, I suppose that they could combine them by having Howland head south for Samwell Tarley's Dermatology Clinic for his annual mole removal treatment that he's needed every since over-exposure to Dornish sun! :D )

However, my counterargument to my suggest is that if Howland was going to be doing this, then he probably would have been among the Northern lords gathered at the outset of the season. Otherwise: when would the main characters meet him? Why would he be coming to Winterfell so much later than everyone else?
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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evenwind
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:49 pm

I don't expect to see him. Why bother to reintroduce a character when the plot-changing information he has can just as easily be supplied by the Citadel and/or Meera and/or Bran? I just hope that there's going to be more to the Big Reveal than just somebody saying "Oh yeah, by the way, Jon's the legimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna". If the other characters are expected to believe it, there should be more proof than somebody's word. Maybe a Targaryen birthmark or some other trope?

On the other hand, Howland may indeed already be in the back of the crowd at Winterfell waiting for the right time to speak...

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Wimsey
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Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:39 pm

evenwind wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:49 pm
If the other characters are expected to believe it, there should be more proof than somebody's word. Maybe a Targaryen birthmark or some other trope?
heh, guns fired late need to be hung early! If there was such a thing, then it should have been introduced already. Besides, given how much of Daenerys we've seen, there's not much space to put that birthmark.

If Reed had been at Winterfell, then he really should have been introduced early this season, vocally supporting or counseling or chiming in in some way.

Another possibility that Bran & Meera will go to Meera's home rather than Bran's. Bran might see something indicating that they need to go there first, or what he's already seen might inspire him to do so.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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Grandmaester Flash
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Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 am

Wimsey wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:02 pm
Grandmaester Flash wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:11 am
He can authenticate what is possibly the most important of Bran's disclosures.
Actually, Howland Reed cannot authenticate Bran's claim: all he can do is support Bran's claim.
As an eye witness, he knows that Ned brought a baby away from the Tower of Joy, and that the baby was Lyanna's.
It was obvious from the circumstances whose baby it was.
And as you go on to say, Ned may have confided more details to him.

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evenwind
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Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:07 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Besides, given how much of Daenerys we've seen, there's not much space to put that birthmark.
Her feet! We've never seen a close-up of her feet! Maybe Dany and Jon (and Tyrion and Meera?) have "Targaryan Toe"? :o
Grandmaester Flash wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 am
As an eye witness, he knows that Ned brought a baby away from the Tower of Joy, and that the baby was Lyanna's.
It was obvious from the circumstances whose baby it was.
And as you go on to say, Ned may have confided more details to him.
It may seem obvious but it's not proof. For all we actually know, Arthur Dayne is Jon's father. But, assuming Jon's father is actually Rhaegar, they really should make it incontrovertable and not just heresay - not only for the viewers but for the characters.

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