S7 E3 The Queens' Justice: Thoughts

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Joel Needs a Car
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:15 am

I tried to post this in the Recap on the front page but it disappeared into a void :(

I think Tyrion's abilities as a military commander are overrated, based on the Battle of Blackwater Bay by his surprise use of Wildfire and the late intervention of the reinforcements from Tywin and the Tyrells. Holding onto a strong defensive position inside a castle is a very different kettle of fish from trying to besiege one. Time and again we have seen in GoT that it is the element of surprise that is crucial ( Robb's capture of Jaime, the Red Wedding, Stannis' pincer on the Wildling army. Knights of the Vale vs Boltons) and it was the element of surprise that gave Tyrion the edge at Blackwater. Then we have the element of surprise again as the Lannisters and Tarly take Highgarden.

Tyrion lacks the element of surprise currently, and in fact it is Euron's surprise attack which scuppers the fleet approaching KL. Dany of course has no-one else to turn to for strategy but those surrounding her, and it is her completely understandable decision IMHO not to use her dragons yet and turn KL into a victory over scorched earth. It is clear that she regards high losses of the smallfolk (her people) as unacceptable (although starving them into submission is!) - very different from those who served the Masters or the Dothrak who would happily see her raped and killed.

Real history is full of instances where strong leaders seemingly in a position of invincibility make unaccountably poor decisions which end up backfiring ( Hitler's choice to attack Russia in WW2 for example, Gallipoli in WW1).

It may well be that all these setbacks start to make Dany think she may have to turn to Jon in a more cajoling means of equal partnership for support and military strategy rather than trying to bully him into bending the knee.

I think we need to allow a little time to see how this all plays out in the next episodes before launching into an inquisition against the writing...
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Meg22
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:35 am

I think Tyrion has failed to consider that Cercei and Jaime know Tyrion as well as he knows them. However, he does learn from his mistakes. They've probably learned from Dany's methods too when it comes to taking over a city. She's considerate of the common people and doesn't endanger their lives. A siege is bad, but dragon bombardment is worse. And if the common people are hungry enough they might just turn on the those in power. It worked to Dany's advantage in Meereen when she offered the slaves their freedom if they overtook the masters.

I also think it's hard to factor in betrayal as the Tarlys have done to the Tyrells. There was no way to predict that. I wonder what happens to the remnants of the Dorne and Tyrell armies. Are they Dany's now to command?

I'd love to see Dany's dragons burn Euron's fleet before rescuing the Unsullied from Casterly Rock. The Unsullied aren't completely without food. There's lots of Lannister soldiers to roast. Not a nice prospect, but the Unsullied have been trained to do unsavory things like snatch a baby from a mother's arms and kill it.

I'm also curious about what Edmure will do if he gets out of the Frey dungeon. He has no love for the Lannisters.

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Joel Needs a Car
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:07 am

Meg22 wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:35 am
I think Tyrion has failed to consider that Cercei and Jaime know Tyrion as well as he knows them. However, he does learn from his mistakes.
Indeed and his humility does make him a very capable "Hand". He has great qualities of course such as wisdom but he is not the general that Dany needs.

I'd be surprised if Dany doesn't seek to enact some sort of retribution against Euron, unless of course Jon convinces her that his cause is the more pressing, but even then it would be dangerous to leave a wildcard like Euron at her back and free to carry out whatever chaos he wishes.
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shah2017
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:55 am

I thought it was a brilliant episode and one of the best in the series. So much happening at a rapid pace and rightly so.

Cersie, regardless of how evil she is, she is a master of being bad and inventing ways to torture her enemies.

After losing all her allies, it is time for Daenary's to "be a dragon" and make her own decisions now.

Looking forward to Arya arriving at Winterfell, although it seems Jon will not be back for awhile.

What has happened to the Hound and co? Are they making their way to EastWatch by the Sea?

My only disappointment was I wanted to see more of Casterly Rock and High Garden, but I understand in the grand scheme of things they are not as important.

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Joel Needs a Car
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:04 pm

shah2017 wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:55 am
What has happened to the Hound and co? Are they making their way to EastWatch by the Sea?
I suppose so, at least the slow journey will stop anyone claiming they "teleported" there :P

I imagine Sam is going to "accidentally" discover something helpful when he goes through all those old scrolls. And I hope we see a little more of Bran in the next episode, he should be able to get the dirt on Littlefinger, surely? A pity we didn't see Meera arrive with Bran, girl deserves special honours from Sansa.

And of course I want to see Arya too, could she catch up with Beric & The Hound on the Kingsroad? That meeting would be something to see...
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Chilli
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Meera did arrive with Bran. But I would have liked to see more of her.

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Wimsey
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:43 pm

Joel Needs a Car wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:07 am
I'd be surprised if Dany doesn't seek to enact some sort of retribution against Euron, unless of course Jon convinces her that his cause is the more pressing, but even then it would be dangerous to leave a wildcard like Euron at her back and free to carry out whatever chaos he wishes.
This would not be retribution! Euron's fleet is a potent force, and Daenerys needs to neutralize it. It is nothing personal: it's just tactics.

I thought that the show did a good job of showing the foibles of war. Tyrion's plans are pretty sound. They didn't know about Euron's fleet, and in this sort of world, they would not have much way of knowing. By the time that they learned, it was too late to alter the Casterly Rock invasion plans.

Where Tyrion guessed wrong is that he assumed that Jaime & Cersei would do anything to protect Casterly Rock. Instead, Jaime executed a gambit: and he put tactics over Lannister pride, which Tyrion probably did not think Jaime capable of doing.

All in all, this was a potent episode. The Jon & Daeny scene was just a little surreal. My favorite part was the "Let's rattle off all of the parallel development between these two characters, just in case there are any dunderheads in the audience who have somehow missed it." :-P Seriously, people have been speculating for nearly two decades what it would be like when these two met. I thought that they did it very well: they didn't swoon in each other's presences, but instead seemed completely at a loss with what to do with one another. I did like Daeny's apologies to the Stark family: that certainly took Jon back. And, of course, the Jon-Tyrion scene where Jon seems to realize just how crazy his Night's King story sounds was precious.

One thing about which I do wonder: why did the "knife through the heart" line snag Daenerys' attention so? She didn't seem to take it as hyperbole the way that Tyrion did.

Maharishi Brani returning to Winterfell was sort of cool. However, he needs to learn how to not freak out people!

The Tyrell's end was good. If I remember rightly, aren't the bulk of their forces in Dorne waiting to be taken to Kings Landing? However, they've lost the breadbasket that is the Reach even if they do still have Tyrell forces. And Olenna gave almost as good as she got in the end.

And, again: I was really bummed that Slughorn did not put Sam on the Quidditch team again this week. I mean, c'mon: what more does a guy have to do???
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
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Dennai
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:43 pm


I thought that the show did a good job of showing the foibles of war. Tyrion's plans are pretty sound. They didn't know about Euron's fleet, and in this sort of world, they would not have much way of knowing. By the time that they learned, it was too late to alter the Casterly Rock invasion plans.
I'm not too sure I agree with that statement. The Ironborn's navy had basically to circumvent Westeros to catch the Targaryen's fleet, and Euron was parading in King's Landing before he embarked to make pursue. Cersei met in the Iron Throne Hall with the Lords of the Reach to create dissent. Casterly Rock was evacuated and his larders emptied (so you can imagine the size of that convoy). And then, Jaime had to gather these troops and march to Highgarden. Nothing of this can be done stealthly. What we have here is a monumental failing of the Intellegence. Either the spy net of Varys had been broken completely during his absence from Westeros, or he's not telling what he knows diligently enough for some reason.
Where Tyrion guessed wrong is that he assumed that Jaime & Cersei would do anything to protect Casterly Rock. Instead, Jaime executed a gambit: and he put tactics over Lannister pride, which Tyrion probably did not think Jaime capable of doing.
Perfectly put. It was made even more obvious with Tyrion's narration.
One thing about which I do wonder: why did the "knife through the heart" line snag Daenerys' attention so? She didn't seem to take it as hyperbole the way that Tyrion did.
Well, Jon gave right away a look to Davos making him stop mid-sentence. She's observant enough to notice.
The Tyrell's end was good. If I remember rightly, aren't the bulk of their forces in Dorne waiting to be taken to Kings Landing? However, they've lost the breadbasket that is the Reach even if they do still have Tyrell forces. And Olenna gave almost as good as she got in the end.
I don't think they have any Tyrell forces left since Tyrell House is gone and the most prestigious lord of the Reach sided with the Lannisters, I can't see the rest of the lords joining Dany's side, and if Lord Tarly has been named Warder of the South (unsure about that, but quite probably), they are his troops to command.
Dorne is hard to predict. They are headless now, but following the logic the show implemented, the people there want war with the Lannister, they wanted so badly that they look the other way while Ellaria and the Sand Snakes murdered the Royal Family. With that in mind, they would put someone in charge and head north, but I'm afraid that the showrunners have forsaken any consistency in Dorne's plotlines and just hope audience forgets about them.
And, again: I was really bummed that Slughorn did not put Sam on the Quidditch team again this week. I mean, c'mon: what more does a guy have to do???
Come on, Wimsey. He let him go very easy. If they are no consequences to disobeying orders and breaking rules, there's nothing stopping him to do it again; you can let the flood gates open that way. And let's not forget, Sam's decision put the whole Citadel at risk. Imagine if instead Prof. Slughorn, it was Pycelle who finds out, or the receptionist guy, Sam would have been kicked in no time.

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Wimsey
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:31 pm

Dennai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm
Nothing of this can be done stealthly. What we have here is a monumental failing of the Intellegence. Either the spy net of Varys had been broken completely during his absence from Westeros, or he's not telling what he knows diligently enough for some reason.
I think that it would be quite easy to do. Because of the ravishes of war and the onset of winter, communications would be at all-time low in Westeros right now. And, let's face it: this is a world in which communications would be much slower AND much more error-laden than our world. Varys' spy nets might still exist, but what are they going to tell him? They knew Euron's fleet was in Kings Landing. After that, the fleet is.... who knows? Prior to aerial reconnaissance, tracking fleets was almost impossible. Even after aerial reconnaissance, finding fleets was damned hard.

The Lannisters withdrew from Casterly Rock without tipping off how little they had left, but, again, how hard was that? The Lannisters were heavily involved in the Riverlands. There is an upcoming invasion of Kings Landing almost certain to happen. Troops would be coming and going from Casterly Rock in large numbers frequently because of all of this. Now, if Daenerys' scouts (such as they are) had been looking for them to march on Highgarden, then perhaps they would have seen the troops doing so. But without knowing where to look, just searching blindly would have been pretty fruitless.
Dennai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm
Well, Jon gave right away a look to Davos making him stop mid-sentence. She's observant enough to notice.
Perhaps! The fact that she brought it up again made it seem like a gun-hanging to me.
Dennai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm
I don't think they have any Tyrell forces left since Tyrell House is gone and the most prestigious lord of the Reach sided with the Lannisters, I can't see the rest of the lords joining Dany's side, and if Lord Tarly has been named Warder of the South (unsure about that, but quite probably), they are his troops to command.
I thought that we were told in Ep. 2 that there were Tyrell forces in Dorne. However, I might have misheard that.
Dennai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm
Dorne is hard to predict. They are headless now, but following the logic the show implemented, the people there want war with the Lannister, they wanted so badly that they look the other way while Ellaria and the Sand Snakes murdered the Royal Family.
It actually is like that in the books, too, for what it is worth: one thing that is clear is that the popular attitude among the Dornish is a demand for revenge for Ellia and Oberyn. It's a small point now: we'll probably see them as troops at some point, because Ellaria certainly was not the commander in chief, but they never bothered to introduce the generals.
Dennai wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:40 pm
Come on, Wimsey. He let him go very easy.
So... no Quidditch, then??? :cry:
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

shah2017
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Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:12 am

Joel Needs a Car wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:04 pm
shah2017 wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:55 am
What has happened to the Hound and co? Are they making their way to EastWatch by the Sea?
I suppose so, at least the slow journey will stop anyone claiming they "teleported" there :P

I imagine Sam is going to "accidentally" discover something helpful when he goes through all those old scrolls. And I hope we see a little more of Bran in the next episode, he should be able to get the dirt on Littlefinger, surely? A pity we didn't see Meera arrive with Bran, girl deserves special honours from Sansa.

And of course I want to see Arya too, could she catch up with Beric & The Hound on the Kingsroad? That meeting would be something to see...
Hmmmm could it be the truth about Jon lol

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