Theories, Wild Theories, & General Lunacy

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QueenofThrones
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:03 am

The Prince who was Promised: We have heard Melisandre mention that a few times, and chosen ones and what not. I don't believe there is only one. I believe there are multiple. Even Beric Dondarion. It could me more of those who truly believe in fighting the great war and ending in the long night.
I've read the books and I still agree with you. I think that it will never be revealed who is "truly" tPtwP / Lord's chosen. People will argue about it until everyone involved is dead, and then the Maesters at the Citadel will continue to debate for centuries thereafter...

shah2017
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 am

I believe Tyrion will die at the end of Season 8 (bitter sweet ending for one of the show's most popular character).

Jon will end up on the Iron throne as Jaehaerys and married to Daenerys.

The Night King will be the the third dragon rider and originally a Targaryen.

Cersie will die at the hands of Jaime (a Romeo Juliet type death).

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Ginevra
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:22 am

QueenofThrones wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:29 am
Speaking of Valeryian Steel I'm somewhat fond of the theory that the idea of a Last Hero + 12(??) companions revival could happen, with each wielding a VS weapon against the others.
That's an awesome idea! I love it, except for the fact that all 12 of the last hero's companions die. But it would be cool to have that happen and not all 12 die this time. There are just enough Valyrian steel swords to do that, too!
Blades known to still exist:
Heartsbane, the ancestral two-handed greatsword of House Tarly, currently in the possession of Lord Randyll Tarly.
Lady Forlorn, the ancestral sword of House Corbray, currently in the possession of Ser Lyn Corbray.
Longclaw, the ancestral Valyrian steel bastard sword of House Mormont. Currently in the possession of Jon Snow.
Nightfall, the ancestral blade of House Harlaw and currently wielded by Ser Harras Harlaw.
Oathkeeper, one of two Valyrian blades reforged by Tobho Mott from Ice. The blade was made for Ser Jaime Lannister, but he has given it to Brienne of Tarth for use in her quest to locate Sansa Stark. The blade was given its name, Oathkeeper, at that time.
Red Rain, the sword of House Drumm, which was stolen by them in a raid.[19] Given the name and coloring, possibly the ancestral sword of House Reyne.
Widow's Wail, one of two Valyrian blades reforged by Tobho Mott from Ice. Following Joffrey Baratheon's death, ownership of Widow's Wail has presumably passed to his younger brother, Tommen.
The dagger with a dragonbone hilt wielded by Bran Stark's failed assassin, and currently in the possession of Petyr Baelish.
Valyrian steel arakh owned by Caggo.[20]
Valyrian steel axe reputedly possessed by House Celtigar.[21]

...
Blades with unknown fates:
Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon I Targaryen. Carried by all Targaryen kings until Aegon IV, who gave it to his bastard Daemon, who rose in rebellion against the Targaryens, taking the sword's name for his house. Its whereabouts are currently unknown.
Brightroar, the ancestral sword of House Lannister, lost when King Tommen II Lannister of the Rock sailed to Valyria and never returned.
Dark Sister, the sword wielded by Visenya Targaryen. Its last known owner was Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers.
Lamentation, the ancestral sword of House Royce, lost in the Storming of the Dragonpit.[22]
Orphan-Maker, the ancestral sword of House Roxton. Its last known owner was Ser Jon Roxton.[23]
Truth, a Valyrian steel sword last carried by Moredo Rogare of Lys.[24]
Vigilance, the ancestral sword of House Hightower. Its last known owner was Lord Ormund Hightower.[23]
--http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Va ... eel_blades

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Ginevra
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:38 am

GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:44 am
4. Bran is the reincarnation of Bran the Builder.

9. Lyanna Stark is The King of the Laughing Tree.

10: Citadel has sort of clues for the war against the White Walkers.
These are my favorites from your list, Geralt! I was just thinking that Bran would be perfect as Bran the Builder in the closing chapter, and I've long understood and loved Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I think that's where R and L fell in love!

And I'm totally in love with the idea that Sam is going to save us all with the knowledge he finds at the Citadel! Jon told him to research dragons, so I believe he'll find out how to control the dragons, which by the time he does will be ever so important because by then it will be oh-so-obvious that Dany cannot control them.
And [the dragons] must be trained as well, or they will lay my kingdom waste. --Dany, A Clash of Kings, p. 438
The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip. Mounted on the dragon’s back, she oft felt as if she were learning to ride all over again. When she whipped her silver mare on her right flank the mare went left, for a horse’s first instinct is to flee from danger. When she laid the whip across Drogon’s right side he veered right, for a dragon’s first instinct is always to attack. Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned. The whip annoyed him more than it hurt him, she had come to see; his scales had grown harder than horn. -A Dany Chapter, A Dance with Dragons (pp. 929-930).
So Sam will find the binding spells and the sorcerous horns (or maybe he already has one!) to bind and control the dragons. He'll also confirm that Valyrian steel is the secret to defeating the Others, along with dragons and dragonglass. He'll discover how to make dragonglass and where the Valyrian steel swords are. Or at least I hope he does all of these things!

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QueenofThrones
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:43 am

Another question, what theories do people have about who the "Younger" person in Cersei's prophecy is? Here's the relevant conversation from the flashback:
Cersei: I'm promised to the prince. When will we marry?
Maggy: You will Never wed the prince. You will wed the king.
Cersei: But I will be queen?
Maggy: Oh yes. You will be queen, for a time... then comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.
Cersei: Will the king and I have children?”
Maggy: No. The king will have twenty children, and you will have three.
Cersei: That doesn't make sense.
Maggy: Gold will be their crowns... and gold their shrouds. *Laughs*
It seems implicit that this younger person is or will be a queen - given the use of the word "another" seeming to refer to queen from the previous sentence. Which would narrow things down considerably (basically to either Margaery or Daenerys).

However, technically speaking the younger person isnt' necessarily a queen, or even a woman. The only requirements strictly are that they are "more beautiful" than Cersei and that they will "cast her down" and "take all she holds dear".

So i think at this point we have to ask what did or does Cersei hold dear?

Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen: I believe that Cersei did love her children and did hold them dear. However we now know the mechanism of all of their deaths, and it was different in each case. Joffery was killed by the Ollena Tyrell, who we can rule out since she's not younger than Cersei. Myrcella was killed by Ellaria Sand who may be about Cersei's age, and has crowned herself princess of Dorne. I don't think she's more beautiful either inside or out however, nor will she really be the one to take the Throne from Cersei. Tommen killed himself because of actions that Cersei took.

Jaime: Would it be accurate to say she holds Jaime dear...? Maybe. Certainly she would like to keep him with her by one means or another and would be enraged if he betrayed her.

Power / The Throne: After Tommen's death, Cersei I believe mostly cares about holding power in her own right. She's tried all her life to wield power by ruling through others and that led to the loss of all of her children and the near destruction of her house - she is now done with any subtlety. Power is what she holds most dear now.

Personally, I think that the younger person who will stop Cersei from being queen will have nothing to do with her children's deaths, even if when we first heard the prophecy that's what people expected it to be about (and what Cersei expected as well). So they will be someone who will take away Jaime and will cast her down from the Throne.

Here's who I think the top candidates are:

Daenerys - I mean it seems really obvious at this point that Daenerys would be the younger queen to Cast Cersei Down and to take the throne from her (TOO obvious?) She has both the means and desire to do so. It's possible she might "take away" Jaime if he turns due to influence from Tyrion (of course Jaime seems to despise Tyrion due to Tywin's death). But I don't know, it seems somewhat unlikely to me that Dany could trust the Kingslayer...?

Jaime - Could Jaime kill Cersei and fulfill the prophecy? He is a few hours younger than she, and it would be ironic if Jaime is the one to kill Cersei. Plus he has more of a means to do so currently than anyone else. If Jaime learns that Cersei essentially killed Tommen would that be enough to motivate him? What if she decides to blow up King's Landing rather than allow Daenerys to take it ala Aerys. Also Jaime himself need only take Cersei's throne... since he himself is all she holds dear other than that! It would also be awful and traumatic so I'd rather not see it.

Brienne - She is called "Brienne the Beauty" mockingly but if we take the statement metaphorically then Brienne is more beautiful than Cersei in many ways as well as younger, and there would be a nice irony there. Plus Brienne is much more likely than anyone to "take" Jaime from Cersei (meaning his loyalty and affections). But Brienne is not in a position to take from Cersei what she holds most dear - which is power. So I definitely rank her below Dany or Jaime.

Tyrion - Could Tyrion be described as "younger and more beautiful"? In the same way as Brienne, I suppose. He may cast Cersei down with Daenerys' help, and may influence Jaime to leave Cersei as well. But I don't know how we would be distinguishing Dany from Tyrion in this, unless Tyrion kills Cersei with his own hands.

Sansa - She used to be a dark horse favorite for this prophecy, and it would be satisfying to see Sansa get some payback against one of her early abusers, but it seems pretty unlikely at this point. After last season the Queen in the North ship has sailed. And I don't think Sansa will be going South, nor does she have any likelihood of stealing away either the Throne or Jaime. Perhaps Jaime will go north to finally fulfill the vow to Catelyn but he'd be going not just for the Starks but also because Brienne is there.

I think these people can be ruled out:

Margaery - In fact, Margaery never "took" anything from Cersei, not really. She did influence her sons, but ultimately Cersei held power to the end, and her sons' lives were taken away by others. Margaery never held any real power in King's Landing - even if she had the common people on her side. Also she had nothing to do with Jaime.

Stannis - This was based on the Valonqar (younger brother) part that was omitted from the show. As we know from S5 Stannis got no closer to KL than Blackwater Bay and he's now rotting somewhere in a field outside Winterfell so... I think we can rule him out pretty definitively. :p

The Hound - "Cleganebowl" theory that the hound would defeat The Mountain in a trial by combat for Cersei, thus condeming her to death was rendered null and void by S6E10. There will be no such trial for Cersei. Also I would not personally describe the Hound as more beautiful than Cersei... Nor is he younger IIRC.

By the way here's a relevant essay from watchers with some evidence for each candidate (some of which we know are wrong now)

ETA: I forgot to mention one other strong candidate!

Arya - Arya is actually in Westeros now, and has the means to kill Cersei since she has FM training. And Cersei is on her list. She's certainly younger and maybe more beautiful (Maisie is adorbs). Anyway I think Arya has a better chance than Sansa now of killing Cersei. In this theory I suppose Arya would kill Jaime and then Cersei, thus taking all she holds dear... Yikes. But then again Jaime is not on her list and she has already passed up one opportunity to kill him.
Last edited by QueenofThrones on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ginevra
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:49 am

Dee Stark wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:26 am
- The Prince who was Promised: We have heard Melisandre mention that a few times, and chosen ones and what not. I don't believe there is only one. I believe there are multiple. Even Beric Dondarion. It could me more of those who truly believe in fighting the great war and ending in the long night.
Beric does have Lightbringer!!! But I imagine the key to Beric is that he'll show Jon the secret to lighting his sword, now that he's also a resurrected one, will be wiping his blood across the blade. And then Jon will have a Lightbringer of his own! Jon is his own Nissa Nissa? Perhaps that is going too far. But Jon will create Lightbringer after Beric shows him how!

I'm in the camp that there can be only one hero, but I may well be wrong. Certainly, there are many heroic figures, including Brienne and Bran and Hodor (sniff) and Sam and many others. I wouldn't consider Beric a hero but possibly an anti-hero. Certainly, she-who-shan't-be-named is an anti-hero or even an anti-villain.

https://youtu.be/uwyvjgs40Oo?t=54s
Last edited by Ginevra on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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QueenofThrones
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:54 am

shah2017 wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 am
The Night King will be the the third dragon rider and originally a Targaryen.
Wow, cool idea! But wasn't the NK supposed to be the dude that the Children of the Forest sacrificed with the dragonglass dagger in the scene Bran saw? Meaning he must have been a first man, not a Targ since the context was the war with the First men.
Cersie will die at the hands of Jaime (a Romeo Juliet type death).
I want Jaime to live tho... :?

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Dee Stark
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:05 am

Ginevra wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:49 am
Dee Stark wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:26 am
- The Prince who was Promised: We have heard Melisandre mention that a few times, and chosen ones and what not. I don't believe there is only one. I believe there are multiple. Even Beric Dondarion. It could me more of those who truly believe in fighting the great war and ending in the long night.
Beric does have Lightbringer!!! But I imagine the key to Beric is that he'll show Jon the secret to lighting his sword, now that he's also a resurrected one, will be wiping his blood across the blade. And then Jon will have a Lightbringer of his own! Jon is his own Nissa Nissa? Perhaps that is going too far. But Jon will create Lightbringer after Beric shows him how!

I'm in the camp that there can be only one hero, but I may well be wrong. Certainly, there are many heroic figures, including Brienne and Bran and Hodor (sniff) and Sam and many others. I wouldn't consider Beric a hero but possibly an anti-hero. Certainly, she-who-shan't-be-named is an anti-hero or even an anti-villain.

https://youtu.be/uwyvjgs40Oo?t=54s
Interesting that you think Beric will Jon how to light his sword. Never even thought of that??


Hmmm I'm not good with those labels because I am not a literature specialist or a writer, but I just don't think that we have one saviour, one hero, in this story. I believe we have multiple.

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Ginevra
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:09 am

QueenofThrones wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:43 am
It seems implicit that this younger person is or will be a queen - given the use of the word "another" seeming to refer to queen from the previous sentence. Which would narrow things down considerably (basically to either Margaery or Daenerys).
Hmm, that is interesting that the person need not be a queen or even a woman! The quote is exactly the same in the books, too, for that portion of the prophecy. I tend to think the prophecy refers to Dany, but I can see elements of Margaery as well. I can't really picture it being anyone else.

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QueenofThrones
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Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:16 am

Hmm, that is interesting that the person need not be a queen or even a woman! The quote is exactly the same in the books, too, for that portion of the prophecy. I tend to think the prophecy refers to Dany, but I can see elements of Margaery as well. I can't really picture it being anyone else.
So if it is Dany, do you think she will take Jaime from Cersei? Or that Cersei does not actually hold Jaime "dear"?

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