Did Sansa's Rape Scene Really Merit the Controversy?

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QueenofThrones
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Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Needle wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:46 pm
Because I don't like it when people praise bad writing, especially when it comes to D&D who seem to get away with anything.
Why would LF marry off Sansa to Ramsay in the first place? You can say he didn't know he was that terrible but I mean damn, the entirety of Westeros knows Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks and killed Robb, and their banner is a flayed man, shouldn't that be a red flag? How come LF knows everything about everyone, but happens to know nothing about the bastard son of turncloak Roose, who likes to skin people for fun? Say what you want about the man, but his love for Catelyn was real, and now that she's dead, Sansa replaced her. He absolutely could manipulate Sansa in different ways, just like he manipulated Cat, but there's no way he'd put her in such a big risk.

Also not to mention the show's crew were highly insensitive about this topic. Bryan Cogman himself tried to defend Sansa's rape by labeling it as a "a hardened woman making a choice." I'm not SJW, but claiming she 'chose' to be raped is seriously wrong. Also it's not like she had a plan beforehand, "oh I'll let him have sex with me once but after that Winterfell will be mine again" Sansa had no idea what will happen next. It's not the same as, for example, Osha giving her body to Theon and Ramsay as a part of a clear plan to get Bran and Rickon to safety.

And yes, you can say I'm a bit bitter about season 5 in general, because I'd like to see a respectful adaptation of GRRM's work of art, fuck me, right? If Sansa does end up listening to LF and betraying Jon in season 7, this is all going to turn into a bigger joke than it already is.
Your problem in your earlier replies was that you felt like you were "tricked" by the narrative. Taht the writers were being lazy by making it seem like a character was on her way up, but then turning that around on you.

Well that's what happened with Dany after Season 1. There is literally no difference.

ok to these new critiques.

1) LF was stupid to not realize Boltons were bad news

LF had already been shown to be wrong about people. Like the "Power is power" scene with Cersei. He's not infallible and makes many mistakes - this is just his latest. The thing which makes LF successful is that he rolls with the punches, and avoids being the one punched in the first place by having pawns (see also: his use of Lysa and Joffery to do his dirty work at various points). I don't

2) Showrunners were insensitive in the aftermath

I think the writers (much like Sansa) were a bit naive. But if you put yourself in their shoes for a bit I think you'd understand them getting a little defensive. I saw comments online saying that these guys loved rape and probably were actually rapists coming from people that didn't like that scene. What the f*ck is wrong with people who say that... well it's the internet so there's that. But unlike you or I these guys don't get anonymity. If they say something about it, then that's forever held against them as people.

And when the showrunners do say something demonstrating their commitment to issues like women's rights, anti-rape, feminism, etc etc (AKA 99% of the time) they get exactly zero credit from the same critics. That's handwaved away somehow. It's much more honest to take the whole picture, not cherry pick quotes.

For Bryan's comment there, he did not actually say that Sansa chose to be raped. He's saying she chose to wed Ramsey. It didn't necessarily have to be rape as far as she knew when she made that choice. Of course her choices sucked ass in this case, since she didn't know what LF would do if she said no. Lots of cases in this series where people are stuck between a rock and a hard place and they have to attempt to chose the best of two bad choices.

Meg22
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Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:04 pm

Most of the main characters who remain have had terrible things happen to them - Sansa, Arya, Jon, Bran, Cersei, Tyrion, Dany, Varys, Jaime- and have emerged stronger because of it. They are survivors. It's what motivates them.

This is why Littlefinger marries Sansa to Ramsay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM

Whatever the outcome Littlefinger becomes warden of the North. However, it doesn't go to plan. He wasn't counting on Jon and wildlings being involved, or Sansa losing trust in him.

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Needle
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Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:56 am

QueenofThrones wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:18 pm
Your problem in your earlier replies was that you felt like you were "tricked" by the narrative. Taht the writers were being lazy by making it seem like a character was on her way up, but then turning that around on you.
I mean yeah, it's my opinion, it's how I felt as a viewer who had read the books. Your criticsm goes "you felt like that, but then you also felt like that" so I don't really get your point.
And, sorry, but I'm still not willing to buy that LF "slipped up". He had already proved himself to be one of the best players in the game, his whole niche is that he knows everything. There's absolutely no way he didn't know who Ramsay truly is, when rumors of his horrific actions are told all throughout the continent.
I said this once and I'll say it again: it is not the same as Dany in the end of season 1. I might be repeating myself, but Dany was stuck in the middle of the desert with very few people following her, who were all weak anyway. She has all the different other Khalasars surrounding her, all want her group dead, and the only thing she has is three tiny dragons who probably can't do much harm. It's silly to assume that from now on everything is gonna go her way.
In Sansa's case, they purposely made it seem like she was going to rule the Vale or something similar. It's not just that, too, they tricked us into thinking Sansa is going to finally be a player in the big game, instead of a piece for other players to use, but then right afterwards she's back at being an abused piece. When Dany hatched her dragons, it didn't make her powerful straight away, but it was obvious to us that she is no longer a piece, she had transitioned into a player and officialy begun her journey to power, even if that meant she's still going to go through several hardships along the way.
Not to mention Dany pretty much fixed things for herself, while Sansa kept getting toyed around and rescued by other people. It was Dany who stopped herself from succumbing to the Undying's visions and instead saved her dragons, it was Dany who came up with the plan to 'sell' Drogon, it was Dany who burned down the Khals. Meanwhile what did Sansa do for herself? Sure, she did escape with Theon, but he pretty much urged her to jump off the wall, and then later on when they made it to the frozen river, Sansa almost stopped, but Theon kept dragging her. Her character deserves so much more than just constantly being the damsel in distress.
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Casso
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Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:00 am

Needle wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:46 pm
Why would LF marry off Sansa to Ramsay in the first place? You can say he didn't know he was that terrible but I mean damn, the entirety of Westeros knows Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks and killed Robb, and their banner is a flayed man, shouldn't that be a red flag? How come LF knows everything about everyone, but happens to know nothing about the bastard son of turncloak Roose, who likes to skin people for fun? Say what you want about the man, but his love for Catelyn was real, and now that she's dead, Sansa replaced her. He absolutely could manipulate Sansa in different ways, just like he manipulated Cat, but there's no way he'd put her in such a big risk.

Also not to mention the show's crew were highly insensitive about this topic. Bryan Cogman himself tried to defend Sansa's rape by labeling it as a "a hardened woman making a choice." I'm not SJW, but claiming she 'chose' to be raped is seriously wrong. Also it's not like she had a plan beforehand, "oh I'll let him have sex with me once but after that Winterfell will be mine again" Sansa had no idea what will happen next. It's not the same as, for example, Osha giving her body to Theon and Ramsay as a part of a clear plan to get Bran and Rickon to safety.
I doubt anyone thought that the Boltons were nice people, but it's quite possible that most people (including Littlefinger) didn't quite know exactly how much of a psychopath Ramsay is. It's certainly something that the Boltons would have kept quiet while the Starks ruled the North, and based on the post-Red Wedding conversation between Roose and Walder Frey, it seems like not much news is getting out of the North. Littlefinger is knowledgeable and well-connected, but he's not omniscient. He also believes (as Roose does) that the Boltons need Sansa to help legitimize their rule in the north.

Regarding Littlefinger's "Love" for Catelyn, I think it was more of a childhood crush that became an obsession, rather than genuine love. When he says he wants the Iron Throne, with Sansa at his side, he's not exactly lying, but the throne is what he really wants, and he sees her as a bonus prize to be won. He cares about her in the sense that he would care about a valuable and desirable possession, not about her as a person. Littlefinger is a sociopath who doesn't really care about anyone but himself, and If he has to "loan" her out to Ramsay Bolton for a while to accomplish his goals, he's fine with that as long as he returns her in one piece. Littlefinger's miscalculation here is that he thought the Boltons would consider her too valuable to harm. He's a gambler, and he has gotten ahead in life by taking risks, so I see no reason why he wouldn't risk Sansa if it helped him reach his goals.

This brings us to the question of why Sansa would agree to it. She had been a helpless pawn for years, and wanted to take control of her life and become a player, so why put herself in a position where she would be powerless? The powerful people Sansa had known had gained power in two basic ways:
1) Brute force and combat ability. This option wasn't really available to her.
2) Manipulation, strategic marriage, and seduction. Sansa had seen several examples of powerful people using this strategy successfully. During the battle of the Blackwater, Cersei had said "Tears aren't a woman's only weapon. The best one's between your legs. Learn how to use it." Margaery had used strategic marriages to gain power and influence. It was pretty clear that Littlefinger hadn't loved Lysa, but only married her to gain control of the Vale. In Sansa's experience, this was the way people gained power if they weren't fighters.

Sansa wanted to become a player rather than a pawn, and based on her experience, she saw one way to accomplish that, so she decided to try it. If Ramsay hadn't been a complete psychopath, it might have even been a pretty good plan. If Ramsay was a halfway decent human being, or even just a typical obnoxious jerk, the wedding night probably would have ended with a somewhat unenthusiastic, but still consensual consummation. Instead, Ramsay made Theon stay and watch, which Sansa clearly wasn't okay with, and he was brutally rough with her, and then locked her in her room afterward.

Sansa had observed other people gaining power through seduction, and thought she was ready to do the same, but she had no practical experience. It turned out that she really wasn't emotionally prepared to follow Cersei's advice from the Battle of the Blackwater, and she certainly wasn't prepared for the level of cruelty that Ramsay subjected her to. If Sansa was more like Myranda (psychopathic and apparently excited by danger), she might have been able to play that game, convince Ramsay to kill Roose, and then rule the north with Ramsay, but Sansa isn't like Myranda, so I don't think any amount of experience would have prepared her to play that role.

It's interesting to see the parallels between Sansa and Arya. Both are trying to to gain power, though Arya is taking the fighting path instead of the manipulation and seduction path. Both learned a bit from experienced masters, but discovered that they weren't really prepared yet. Arya was quickly knocked down and disarmed by Polliver in season 2, then Thoros easily disarmed her when she tried to demonstrate her skill at the inn in season 3. The Hound let her stab his armor, then knocked her down and disarmed her in season 4. The Waif beat her with a staff many times in season 6 (and apparently gave her crazy pain tolerance in the process). Arya's advantage is that she eventually got a lot of time to practice before the Waif tried to kill her for real.

Sansa on the other hand was up against the worst possible opponent before she had ever really had a chance to practice the skills she intended to learn. By the time she had decided to try to gain power in this way (at the end of season 4), she had already missed an opportunity for a somewhat safer learning experience. If her "Dark Sansa" moment had come at the end of season 2 or early season 3, she might have seen her marriage to Tyrion as an opportunity to try to take Casterly Rock for her children, but at that time, she was still just trying to survive rather than gain power. Sansa vs. Ramsay was just a really unfair contest. It would be like Arya trying to fight the Waif back in season 2 before she had time to practice.

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Needle
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Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:48 am

Casso wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:00 am
I doubt anyone thought that the Boltons were nice people, but it's quite possible that most people (including Littlefinger) didn't quite know exactly how much of a psychopath Ramsay is. It's certainly something that the Boltons would have kept quiet while the Starks ruled the North
Ramsay and Roose never tried to hide their brutality, and the Starks haven't been ruling for enough time for LF to realise who Ramsay truly is. Ramsay went on skinning and torturing in plain sight, these stuff don't go unnoticed.
Casso wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:00 am
and based on the post-Red Wedding conversation between Roose and Walder Frey, it seems like not much news is getting out of the North. Littlefinger is knowledgeable and well-connected, but he's not omniscient. He also believes (as Roose does) that the Boltons need Sansa to help legitimize their rule in the north.
Roose is the only one on Robb's side who survived the red wedding, and right afterwards, Tywin Lannister himself said he would name him Warden of the North. Odd coincidence? For a man praised for being so intelligent and unpredictable, he did very little research on someone who's going to be a big part of his plan.

Casso wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:00 am
This brings us to the question of why Sansa would agree to it. She had been a helpless pawn for years, and wanted to take control of her life and become a player, so why put herself in a position where she would be powerless? The powerful people Sansa had known had gained power in two basic ways:
1) Brute force and combat ability. This option wasn't really available to her.
2) Manipulation, strategic marriage, and seduction. Sansa had seen several examples of powerful people using this strategy successfully. During the battle of the Blackwater, Cersei had said "Tears aren't a woman's only weapon. The best one's between your legs. Learn how to use it." Margaery had used strategic marriages to gain power and influence. It was pretty clear that Littlefinger hadn't loved Lysa, but only married her to gain control of the Vale. In Sansa's experience, this was the way people gained power if they weren't fighters.

Sansa wanted to become a player rather than a pawn, and based on her experience, she saw one way to accomplish that, so she decided to try it. If Ramsay hadn't been a complete psychopath, it might have even been a pretty good plan. If Ramsay was a halfway decent human being, or even just a typical obnoxious jerk, the wedding night probably would have ended with a somewhat unenthusiastic, but still consensual consummation. Instead, Ramsay made Theon stay and watch, which Sansa clearly wasn't okay with, and he was brutally rough with her, and then locked her in her room afterward.
Sigh. When Sansa realises LF is going to marry her off to the son of the man who betrayed her family, she starts crying, she starts panicking, she doesn't think "oh if I fuck him he'll be wrapped around my finger." She doesn't have a choice, because if she would've said 'no', LF would've found a different way to make her marry him. Truly, the only reason they added LF's lines telling her that it's her choice, is so that viewers can say "oh it was SANSA's choice to marry Ramsay!! She agreed to do it knowing what will happen!!!"

Sansa doesn't feel uncomfortable being with Ramsay because 'Theon is watching her'. There are a good few seconds way before he tells Theon to stay, where he only tells Sansa that it's time to do their duty, that you can literally see the DISTRESS on her face. Her eyes are glistening, she's gulping, she's fiddling with her fingers, basic signs of fear.

Do you really think that if Theon didn't stay, Ramsay wouldn't have been brutally rough with her, and then locking her inside afterwards?
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Meg22
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Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:15 pm

I've been reading this debate with interest. One observation I'd make is that for speculation to be valid it has to be done within the information that the show has provided. So, if the writers go to the trouble of having Littlefinger specifically announce that he knows nothing of Ramsay, then he knows nothing of Ramsay until it's demonstrated otherwise.

This isn't a world with fast communication or long distances that can be transversed easily. Ramsay had nothing to do with the red wedding. The capture of Iron born that occupied Moat Calin was ostensibly done by Theon before they were subsequently flayed by Ramsay. But as it was done behind castle walls, it's unlikely that word got out about it. Ramsay has been very good at covering his tracks. Even his stepmother, who lived with him, was taken by surprise when he fed her and her newborn son to his dogs.

It makes no sense for Littlefinger to risk an asset as valuable as Sansa. She's an integral part of his plan and he went to a lot of trouble to murder Joffrey and rescue her from Kings Landing. So to place her in the hands of a "known" psychopath who could potentially kill or maim her, or, at the very least, have her hate him and lose her trust in him makes no sense from a strategic point of view. And Littlefinger is nothing if not strategic.

To me, Littlefinger looked genuinely distressed that Sansa had suffered and wanted nothing more to do with him. He had none of the smoothness he usually employs when he's manipulating people. I think he cares for her as much as Littlefinger is capable. As well as being an integral part of his plans, she's his second chance with Caitlin - the only woman he's ever loved.

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Dee Stark
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Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:35 am

No.

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Casso
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Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:47 am

Needle wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:48 am
Ramsay and Roose never tried to hide their brutality, and the Starks haven't been ruling for enough time for LF to realise who Ramsay truly is. Ramsay went on skinning and torturing in plain sight, these stuff don't go unnoticed.
In most seasons, I typically assume about a year passes per season, so roughly a little over a month per episode, though not all story lines progress at exactly the same rate. Season 3 and 4 are the exception to this (Season 4 particularly). I generally assume these seasons combined are roughly a year, with season 3 being about 9 months, and season 4 being about 3 months. It's just a huge stretch for me to imagine Tyrion's imprisonment and trials spanning much longer than a few months. Since the Red Wedding happened at the end of Season 3, and Littlefinger was already getting a reply from Roose at the beginning of Season 5, it seems like he started putting this plan in motion very soon after Roose was named Warden of the North.

While Ned and Robb were still in charge, Ramsay presumably kept his flaying secret. It had been outlawed, and he would have been executed (or fled into exile) if he was caught. Ser Jorah fled justice because he was caught selling slaves, so a bastard like Ramsay Snow would have certainly faced death or exile if he was caught. After the Red Wedding, Ramsay became more open and public about the flaying. He flayed the Ironborn garrison at Moat Cailin, but the only witnesses to that were his own people, who had likely learned long ago to keep quiet about Ramsay's activities.

The first really public flaying that non-Bolton northerners would likely have been aware of would be the Cerwyns. If they had any idea what kind of person Ramsay was, they probably would have paid their taxes the first time he asked, so it seems that prior to that incident, Ramsay's brutality wasn't generally known even in the north. By the time the Cerwyns had been flayed, Roose had already accepted Littlefinger's offer, and he informed Ramsay of the marriage right afterward, so Ramsay's brutality wasn't widely known yet when Littlefinger made the offer.
Needle wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:48 am
Roose is the only one on Robb's side who survived the red wedding, and right afterwards, Tywin Lannister himself said he would name him Warden of the North. Odd coincidence? For a man praised for being so intelligent and unpredictable, he did very little research on someone who's going to be a big part of his plan.
While Littlefinger clearly has some spies in the North (for example, he received news of Sansa's escape pretty quickly), he is absolutely not omniscient. Everyone knew that Roose had betrayed Robb, that was certainly no secret, but people in the South (even Lords like Walder Frey, who had access to r-mail to get the latest news) seemed to have little knowledge of what was going on in the North after Theon took Winterfell back in Season 2. Littlefinger did know something about the Boltons. He knew Roose was ambitious and treacherous (which were qualities he actually needed for his plan to work, since a Roose who was genuinely loyal to the crown would have executed him for treason just for suggesting the scheme). He knew Ramsay was a recently legitimized bastard. Since that required a decree from King Tommen, Littlefinger's spies in King's landing could have easily learned that.

Littlefinger most likely had no spies at all in the Dreadfort. Littlefinger's spy network in the north is most likely very small compared to his network in King's Landing, and most of those would have been in and around Winterfell, since that was where Catelyn was, and that was the center of northern politics. Once the War of Five Kings started, many of the spies probably would have followed the armies, since that's where the interesting action was, leaving his northern network even thinner than before. The Dreadfort wouldn't have been worth paying much attention to before the Red Wedding.

Roose becoming Warden of the North suddenly makes the Boltons interesting to Littlefinger, but getting a spy into position to learn the Boltons' secrets would likely take more than a few months, and have a high risk of ending with a flayed spy. He knew Roose didn't have a legitimate heir, and had convinced Tommen to legitimize his bastard Ramsay. He knew that the other northern lords were probably unhappy with Bolton rule, since it was quite well known that Roose had betrayed Robb. He knew that marrying Sansa to Ramsay would significantly strengthen the Boltons' hold on the north because it would mean that the last known surviving Stark would be in line to become Lady of Winterfell, and her children would inherit Winterfell. Once the marriage happened, any northern rebellion against the Boltons would effectively also be a rebellion against Sansa and her children's claim on Winterfell. It was a good plan for Roose and Littlefinger, with just one really huge flaw...Ramsay was a complete psycho.

Littlefinger didn't know just how much of a psycho Ramsay was. Even Roose, who clearly knew Ramsay's tendencies and didn't seem to have any moral qualms about them, didn't seem quite aware of how much of a psycho he was. Roose is a calculating, strategic thinker, and he thought he could teach Ramsay to moderate (or at least conceal) his cruelty to protect their strategic position. He was wrong, and he underestimated how far Ramsay would go.
Needle wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:48 am
Sigh. When Sansa realises LF is going to marry her off to the son of the man who betrayed her family, she starts crying, she starts panicking, she doesn't think "oh if I fuck him he'll be wrapped around my finger." She doesn't have a choice, because if she would've said 'no', LF would've found a different way to make her marry him. Truly, the only reason they added LF's lines telling her that it's her choice, is so that viewers can say "oh it was SANSA's choice to marry Ramsay!! She agreed to do it knowing what will happen!!!"

Sansa doesn't feel uncomfortable being with Ramsay because 'Theon is watching her'. There are a good few seconds way before he tells Theon to stay, where he only tells Sansa that it's time to do their duty, that you can literally see the DISTRESS on her face. Her eyes are glistening, she's gulping, she's fiddling with her fingers, basic signs of fear.
Yes, Sansa was afraid, and didn't want to marry Ramsay. She did want to get Winterfell back, and she did want to stop being a helpless pawn, and Littlefinger convinced her that marrying Ramsay was the best way to accomplish that, so she agreed. Certainly, she would have been worried about what Littlefinger would do if she refused. Maybe force her to do it anyway, maybe make her marry Robin Arryn (as Lysa had planned), who knows. the point is that she decided it was the best of a bunch of shitty options, and the only option that would get her Winterfell.

People who choose the military path to power also face difficult, dangerous, unpleasant, painful and frightening situations. Most soldiers probably don't like going into battle, and many are probably afraid before a battle. They don't necessarily even want to kill the opposing soldiers, but they have to do so because that's what it takes to win, and if you don't win, you're likely to die. Sansa didn't expect to love Ramsay, and didn't want to marry him, but political marriages in Westeros are about power and inheritance, not love or desire, and she was willing to go through with it to get Winterfell back, even though she was afraid. She agreed to do something frightening and unpleasant, because she though it would get her something she wanted, and give her some control over her life. In the modern world, we expect marriage to be about love (and younger Sansa who liked all the romantic stories of princes might have had a similar attitude), but in Westeros, politics, marriage, and war are all closely connected.

On her wedding night, she was clearly afraid even before Ramsay told Theon to stay, and that's completely understandable. She knew Ramsay was a bit crazy, just from his behavior, and from Myranda's stories. She also knew it was too late to turn back, but at that point I think she was still willing to consummate the marriage consensually (or at least as consensually as any unwanted marriage entered into for political reasons). At that point, if she could somehow magically choose between consummating the marriage and eventually becoming Lady of Winterfell, or annulling the marriage, and going back to the Vale and living out her life as a pawn, hoping Cersei's agents never found her, I think she was still prepared to consummate the marriage.

When Ramsay made Theon stay and watch, that might have been the last straw that made her decide that getting Winterfell back wasn't worth enduring marriage to this psycho. She was certainly afraid from the moment she realized Littlefinger was taking her to Winterfell, but I think Ramsay telling Theon to watch was the first time she really regretted agreeing to the plan.
Needle wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:48 am
Do you really think that if Theon didn't stay, Ramsay wouldn't have been brutally rough with her, and then locking her inside afterwards?
No. Of course not. I never claimed that. Ramsay is Ramsay. He's a psycho who like to torture, humiliate and kill people.

What I said was:
IF Ramsay didn't make Theon stay and watch
AND Ramsay wasn't brutally rough
AND Ramsay didn't lock her up
THEN Sansa might not have regretted agreeing to marry him.

Even if all three of the conditions above were met, Sansa still probably wouldn't like him, but she might have still considered getting Winterfell back to be worth the price of being his wife.

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Grandmaester Flash
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Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:03 am

Casso wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:00 am
If Sansa was more like Myranda (psychopathic and apparently excited by danger), she might have been able to play that game, convince Ramsay to kill Roose, and then rule the north with Ramsay, but Sansa isn't like Myranda, so I don't think any amount of experience would have prepared her to play that role.
We saw Margaery doing something similar, letting Joffrey think she shared his sadistic tendencies in the scene with the crossbow in S3E2.

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Needle
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Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:39 am

Casso wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:47 am
While Ned and Robb were still in charge, Ramsay presumably kept his flaying secret. It had been outlawed, and he would have been executed (or fled into exile) if he was caught. Ser Jorah fled justice because he was caught selling slaves, so a bastard like Ramsay Snow would have certainly faced death or exile if he was caught. After the Red Wedding, Ramsay became more open and public about the flaying. He flayed the Ironborn garrison at Moat Cailin, but the only witnesses to that were his own people, who had likely learned long ago to keep quiet about Ramsay's activities.

The first really public flaying that non-Bolton northerners would likely have been aware of would be the Cerwyns. If they had any idea what kind of person Ramsay was, they probably would have paid their taxes the first time he asked, so it seems that prior to that incident, Ramsay's brutality wasn't generally known even in the north. By the time the Cerwyns had been flayed, Roose had already accepted Littlefinger's offer, and he informed Ramsay of the marriage right afterward, so Ramsay's brutality wasn't widely known yet when Littlefinger made the offer.
Alright, so let's assume he didn't know about Ramsay's psychotic behaviour: Roose literally stabbed her brother, and betrayed her family even though his house is sworn to their's. LF's portrayal on the series shows that he actually cares about Sansa, even if it's just an unhealthy obsession. Why would he marry her off to the people who murdered her family? Regardless if he assumed they won't hurt her because they need her to rule Winterfell, being forced to marry the son of the man who killed her brother and mother probably won't do well to Sansa's mental state.
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