Did Sansa's Rape Scene Really Merit the Controversy?

[QueenofThrones]

It doesn't bother me too much at this point. I am not sure why people think Sansa going "from player to victim" somehow destroys her as a character. Robb went from powerful to victim. Jon too, as did Tyrion and Cersei... Honestly most of the characters did at one time or another. The point as the Greyjoys say is "to rise again, harder and stronger".

Certainly it was frustrating and upsetting to watch - just as the red wedding and Jons assassination were frustrating to read. But the events of s6 made it worth it, for both jon and Sansa. Honestly I'm more annoyed about the somewhat artificial conflict between the two characters near the end of s6. But I can understand that as well.

Those who are upset aren't acting like that because the idea of a character falling from power is "unacceptable". Everyone can agree that Jaime's tough time as a prisoner only made him a better character.
What's upsetting us, is the fact that D&D began setting up a stronger Sansa, who won't let herself be manipulated and used by others. And only mere episodes later, she's back at being a powerless and abused captive.

So what was the point? What was the point of the scene where she dramatically walks down the stairs in a black dress? What was the point of setting this whole thing up?

I am still not understanding the difference.

You could just as easily say "what was the point" of Robb getting his triumphant "King in the North" moment, or capturing Jaime, if he just gets murdered later on. Or, what was the point of Tyrion getting to be hand of the king if he gets humiliated as soon as Tywin gets back to KL. What was the point of Jon being LC if he gets stabbed.

The point is characters think they finally are on top and then due to twist of fate or the actions of others they aren't. It Could have gone another way but it turns out Ramsey was a psychopath. No one in the TV series except the Boltons themselves knew this, including Sansa and Littlefinger.

[The Dragon Demands]

But the writers didn't call it a twist of fate. They never seem to acknowledge that Sansa even lost narrative agency. Going into Season 5, they kept insisting "this is the season that Sansa goes from pawn to player"....which is contradictory with your reading that it was a twist to show she's being depowered.

[Meg22]

At the end of season 4 Sansa was still a pawn - Littlefinger's pawn. Her newfound sense of power was an illusion. When Littlefinger persuaded Sansa to marry Ramsay all he spoke of was revenge and taking control of one's life. So what does Sansa do? Place her power in the hands of Littlefinger and Ramsay and wait for Stannis to rescue her, presumably while Littlefinger did his machinations behind the scenes.

I'm not blaming the character. She's young, has been tossed around and abused, and Littlefinger was the one to rescue her from that. And at that point in the story, he was really the only one she could trust to be in her corner.

It was a tough lesson. But at least she didn't lose her head like Ned. For Littlefinger to achieve his goal of claiming the Iron Throne he needs legitimacy and that's where Sansa comes in. But now she doesn't trust him and has learned not to give her power to anyone - even, perhaps, Jon.

[Not Littlefinger]

But the writers didn't call it a twist of fate. They never seem to acknowledge that Sansa even lost narrative agency. Going into Season 5, they kept insisting "this is the season that Sansa goes from pawn to player"....which is contradictory with your reading that it was a twist to show she's being depowered.

Perhaps that why I don't feel the same... I don't really pay attention to or put much value on producer commentary. Rather, I take it face value and interpret it as I perceive it; that's what a story is. In that case, I interpreted it to be a twist of fate and was unaware that the producers intended for it to be anything different. Knowing that now, I could understand how other's disapproval of the scene is warranted.

[Tensor the Mage]

Thank you for raising this topic. I'll answer the title of this post with a firm "no." I was annoyed by the controversy back then; as my spouse put it, "the only reason people got upset was because they like Sansa as a character."

Others here have mentioned the entire storyline at Craster's Keep, any element of which rivals Sansa's experience with Ramsay for pure hell visited upon the helpless female characters involved. Let's return to basic feminism, and recall patriarchy means rape culture. Craster was one type of patriarch. On his wedding day, Ramsay is a patriarch-in-training, whose own father raped his mother(!). Tywin is a patriarch who verbally abuses his only daughter. All of these men easily abuse the women in their lives, because societies on Westeros are heavily patriarchal.

Complaining about patriarchy in a setting based upon the European Dark Ages is like watching a story with fire-breathing dragons and then complaining when some character gets burnt and eaten.

[Needle]

It doesn't bother me too much at this point. I am not sure why people think Sansa going "from player to victim" somehow destroys her as a character. Robb went from powerful to victim. Jon too, as did Tyrion and Cersei... Honestly most of the characters did at one time or another. The point as the Greyjoys say is "to rise again, harder and stronger".

Certainly it was frustrating and upsetting to watch - just as the red wedding and Jons assassination were frustrating to read. But the events of s6 made it worth it, for both jon and Sansa. Honestly I'm more annoyed about the somewhat artificial conflict between the two characters near the end of s6. But I can understand that as well.

Those who are upset aren't acting like that because the idea of a character falling from power is "unacceptable". Everyone can agree that Jaime's tough time as a prisoner only made him a better character.
What's upsetting us, is the fact that D&D began setting up a stronger Sansa, who won't let herself be manipulated and used by others. And only mere episodes later, she's back at being a powerless and abused captive.

So what was the point? What was the point of the scene where she dramatically walks down the stairs in a black dress? What was the point of setting this whole thing up?

I am still not understanding the difference.

You could just as easily say "what was the point" of Robb getting his triumphant "King in the North" moment, or capturing Jaime, if he just gets murdered later on. Or, what was the point of Tyrion getting to be hand of the king if he gets humiliated as soon as Tywin gets back to KL. What was the point of Jon being LC if he gets stabbed.

The point is characters think they finally are on top and then due to twist of fate or the actions of others they aren't. It Could have gone another way but it turns out Ramsey was a psychopath. No one in the TV series except the Boltons themselves knew this, including Sansa and Littlefinger.

That's the thing, Sansa WASN'T on top, they just started to hype it like she was starting to climb up. Suddenly appearing 'darker' doesn't make you on top, it was just a hint to what was supposed to come. It's not the same thing as Robb being a king everyone rallied behind, and then suddenly getting murdered at his uncle's wedding.
The showrunners had a chance to develop her character and make her more than just an abused little girl, but they threw it all away for the sake of some shock value.
Game of Thrones is written like real life, and real life balances things out. If someone is on a high position, you almost expect them to fall at some point. Jon can't be a loved lord commander forever, Jaime can't be a master swordsman forever, Tyrion can't be a powerful Hand forever. Sansa went from 0 to 0. Because like I said, wearing a dark dress and talking in a dramatic tone doesn't make her powerful.
Tricking your viewers/readers is not something bad, but the way they wrote her story is just lazy and not praiseworthy.

[QueenofThrones]

That's the thing, Sansa WASN'T on top, they just started to hype it like she was starting to climb up. Suddenly appearing 'darker' doesn't make you on top, it was just a hint to what was supposed to come. It's not the same thing as Robb being a king everyone rallied behind, and then suddenly getting murdered at his uncle's wedding.

As Varys said, "Power is an illusion". in Sansa's case, it was more an illusion than in some of those others.

If you want another example, which is more similar how about this. At the end of S1 was arguably Dany's most iconic moment - when the dragons were born. Certainly at the time I read that, I was like "NO ONE CAN STOP HER NOW! HELL YEAH!"

But the next time we see her, Dany is dying as they slowly cross the red waste. Her people are dropping like flies. Ultimately she loses half her khalasaar. There is much fear her baby dragons will die. Eventually she manages to get herself into Qarth and then the dragons are stolen and more of her people die. Certainly by mid S2 this was a massive a turn around from the ending of Season 1 which made us hope that Dany finally had power in her own right.

Likewise in early S6 Sansa has turned things around for the better by escaping with Theon and getting to the Wall. And, ultimately, by convincing Jon to gather an army and take back Winterfell.

In fact this happens over again in Dany's arc at least 3 times. I've always felt like Sansa and Dany's arc are very similar in this way. Lots of ups and downs but an overall upward trajectory.

Sansa went from 0 to 0. Because like I said, wearing a dark dress and talking in a dramatic tone doesn't make her powerful.

Tricking your viewers/readers is not something bad, but the way they wrote her story is just lazy and not praiseworthy.

Carrying the Khal's child didn't actually make Dany more powerful, nor did having 3 baby dragons. In both cases, it made her feel powerful but that was about it. Same with Sansa. Tricking the Vale lords into freeing Littlefinger made her feel powerful. It gave her a glimpse into what power could be. Turns out that as Cersei said, sometimes "Power is Power". And Sansa had no "hard" power at all until Brienne swore her sword to her in S6.

[Needle]

That's the thing, Sansa WASN'T on top, they just started to hype it like she was starting to climb up. Suddenly appearing 'darker' doesn't make you on top, it was just a hint to what was supposed to come. It's not the same thing as Robb being a king everyone rallied behind, and then suddenly getting murdered at his uncle's wedding.

As Varys said, "Power is an illusion". in Sansa's case, it was more an illusion than in some of those others.

If you want another example, which is more similar how about this. At the end of S1 was arguably Dany's most iconic moment - when the dragons were born. Certainly at the time I read that, I was like "NO ONE CAN STOP HER NOW! HELL YEAH!"

But the next time we see her, Dany is dying as they slowly cross the red waste. Her people are dropping like flies. Ultimately she loses half her khalasaar. There is much fear her baby dragons will die. Eventually she manages to get herself into Qarth and then the dragons are stolen and more of her people die. Certainly by mid S2 this was a massive a turn around from the ending of Season 1 which made us hope that Dany finally had power in her own right.

Likewise in early S6 Sansa has turned things around for the better by escaping with Theon and getting to the Wall. And, ultimately, by convincing Jon to gather an army and take back Winterfell.

In fact this happens over again in Dany's arc at least 3 times. I've always felt like Sansa and Dany's arc are very similar in this way. Lots of ups and downs but an overall upward trajectory.

Sansa went from 0 to 0. Because like I said, wearing a dark dress and talking in a dramatic tone doesn't make her powerful.

Tricking your viewers/readers is not something bad, but the way they wrote her story is just lazy and not praiseworthy.

Carrying the Khal's child didn't actually make Dany more powerful, nor did having 3 baby dragons. In both cases, it made her feel powerful but that was about it. Same with Sansa. Tricking the Vale lords into freeing Littlefinger made her feel powerful. It gave her a glimpse into what power could be. Turns out that as Cersei said, sometimes "Power is Power". And Sansa had no "hard" power at all until Brienne swore her sword to her in S6.

I don't... I don't think literally anyone besides you thought "wow she's unstoppable now" once she hatched three tiny dragons. Excuse me if I come off as rude, but actually thinking that simply because she has three cat-sized dragons that can barely hunt themselves she is immediately going to be powerful is kinda silly, especially since we already knew before that she has very few people following her, and they're all stuck in the desert. NOW that her three dragons are all massive, it would make sense to assume that she's unstoppable. Hatching the dragons was an important moment for her character, and not all important moments are happy/powerful ones.

Your reasoning goes from "Sansa fell from grace" to "Sansa only THOUGHT she had power" so this is getting kinda frustrating.

[QueenofThrones]

That's the thing, Sansa WASN'T on top, they just started to hype it like she was starting to climb up. Suddenly appearing 'darker' doesn't make you on top, it was just a hint to what was supposed to come. It's not the same thing as Robb being a king everyone rallied behind, and then suddenly getting murdered at his uncle's wedding.

I don't... I don't think literally anyone besides you thought "wow she's unstoppable now" once she hatched three tiny dragons. Excuse me if I come off as rude, but actually thinking that simply because she has three cat-sized dragons that can barely hunt themselves she is immediately going to be powerful is kinda silly, especially since we already knew before that she has very few people following her, and they're all stuck in the desert. NOW that her three dragons are all massive, it would make sense to assume that she's unstoppable. Hatching the dragons was an important moment for her character, and not all important moments are happy/powerful ones.

Your reasoning goes from "Sansa fell from grace" to "Sansa only THOUGHT she had power" so this is getting kinda frustrating.

Look. I didn't think Dany was LITERALLY unstoppable at the end of S1 more than I thought Sansa was at the end of S4. But we are led to believe by the narrative in both cases that the characters are on their way up and are now destined for great things. In a more traditional fantasy story that's exactly what would have happened. Instead, in both cases, the characters fall. And will fall many more times.

You're right it's getting frustrating. It's very frustrating to understand why on earth you insist on putting this particular instance of "Oh this character seems to be in a good position now - oh wait nope they aren't" in a completely different category than all of the others which are qualitatively similar.

The only difference I can think of is "well this one didn't happen in the books so I hate it".

[Needle]

That's the thing, Sansa WASN'T on top, they just started to hype it like she was starting to climb up. Suddenly appearing 'darker' doesn't make you on top, it was just a hint to what was supposed to come. It's not the same thing as Robb being a king everyone rallied behind, and then suddenly getting murdered at his uncle's wedding.

I don't... I don't think literally anyone besides you thought "wow she's unstoppable now" once she hatched three tiny dragons. Excuse me if I come off as rude, but actually thinking that simply because she has three cat-sized dragons that can barely hunt themselves she is immediately going to be powerful is kinda silly, especially since we already knew before that she has very few people following her, and they're all stuck in the desert. NOW that her three dragons are all massive, it would make sense to assume that she's unstoppable. Hatching the dragons was an important moment for her character, and not all important moments are happy/powerful ones.

Your reasoning goes from "Sansa fell from grace" to "Sansa only THOUGHT she had power" so this is getting kinda frustrating.

Look. I didn't think Dany was LITERALLY unstoppable at the end of S1 more than I thought Sansa was at the end of S4. But we are led to believe by the narrative in both cases that the characters are on their way up and are now destined for great things. In a more traditional fantasy story that's exactly what would have happened. Instead, in both cases, the characters fall. And will fall many more times.

You're right it's getting frustrating. It's very frustrating to understand why on earth you insist on putting this particular instance of "Oh this character seems to be in a good position now - oh wait nope they aren't" in a completely different category than all of the others which are qualitatively similar.

The only difference I can think of is "well this one didn't happen in the books so I hate it".

Because I don't like it when people praise bad writing, especially when it comes to D&D who seem to get away with anything.
Why would LF marry off Sansa to Ramsay in the first place? You can say he didn't know he was that terrible but I mean damn, the entirety of Westeros knows Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks and killed Robb, and their banner is a flayed man, shouldn't that be a red flag? How come LF knows everything about everyone, but happens to know nothing about the bastard son of turncloak Roose, who likes to skin people for fun? Say what you want about the man, but his love for Catelyn was real, and now that she's dead, Sansa replaced her. He absolutely could manipulate Sansa in different ways, just like he manipulated Cat, but there's no way he'd put her in such a big risk.

Also not to mention the show's crew were highly insensitive about this topic. Bryan Cogman himself tried to defend Sansa's rape by labeling it as a "a hardened woman making a choice." I'm not SJW, but claiming she 'chose' to be raped is seriously wrong. Also it's not like she had a plan beforehand, "oh I'll let him have sex with me once but after that Winterfell will be mine again" Sansa had no idea what will happen next. It's not the same as, for example, Osha giving her body to Theon and Ramsay as a part of a clear plan to get Bran and Rickon to safety.

And yes, you can say I'm a bit bitter about season 5 in general, because I'd like to see a respectful adaptation of GRRM's work of art, fuck me, right? If Sansa does end up listening to LF and betraying Jon in season 7, this is all going to turn into a bigger joke than it already is.