Religion in Westeros

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Not Littlefinger
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Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:13 pm

Meg22 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:36 pm
Perhaps it's like the Ian McShane character suggests, that it's the same god but with different names. They all seem to be working for the same objective.
What do you think the "same objective" is?

Meg22
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Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:55 pm

Not Littlefinger wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:13 pm
Meg22 wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:36 pm
Perhaps it's like the Ian McShane character suggests, that it's the same god but with different names. They all seem to be working for the same objective.
What do you think the "same objective" is?
It's all leading up to the Great War. Who survives to fight it. How the characters are placed and who they are allied with. As Kinvara says, "everything happens for a reason."

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evenwind
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Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 am

If all the different gods are actually just different names for the same singular god, then it's even worse for the followers of the Seven. The various priests/priestesses of the other religions get real power thru their use of the other names. The Septons and Septas get nothing tangible back from the Seven. So either the Seven are not valid names for the one god, or they are but the one god doesn't chose to give any power to the Seven's followers.

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Dee Stark
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Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:12 am

evenwind wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:44 pm
So, Religion (always fun to bring up in a bar full of strangers).

I’d like to believe that in a world as detailed as ASOIAF, GRRM has good reasons for describing the things he does - in this case the various religions. The thing is, I don’t remember any time that the Faith of the Seven, the dominate religion of Westeros after all, has shown any kind of unworldly/magical power (and please remind me if I’m forgetting something). R’hllor has power. The Old Gods have power. The Many-Faced God has power. The Drowned God has power. The Faith of the Seven seems to just have bureaucracy.

I’ve read that GRRM has loosely based the Faith of the Seven on the medieval Christian Church. And also that GRRM considers himself to be a lapsed Catholic. So it’s possible, I guess, that the apparent lack of magic only from the New Gods is a subtle dig at the Catholic Church. But I’m hoping that there’s a lot more going on and that the apparent weakness of the New Gods is important to the endgame.

Anybody have any insights?

All religions (in real life) have the same objectives. Be good. Treat people well. Promote Peace. Blah blah. But they are at odds with one another because people did that. People use religion for power. And that’s how it is in the show/books too. The faith of the 7 seems to be a constructed religion, not a God-like religion. Something constructed to control the masses. And the other religions have “miracles”. It’s just to differentiate the religions. But what I think what GRRM is doing is showing the effect of religion (whichever it is) on the population. How violent it can get, etc.

In general, I think religion in the show/books is being used to demonstrate how people blindly follow faith and some can become extremists. It also shows that poor or unfortunate people, people on the verge of giving up, need hope (religion) in order to move forward and get out of their funk (ex: Mereen, Hound, Stannis, Tommen) and how some people will abuse religion to get their way (the High Sparrow, Margery, Tyrion (priestesses to preach about Dany). The show/books demonstrate that hope also lies with those who actually and truly want to do good, and not necessarily just religious people. Dany, Jon and Bran represent that hope and they don’t believe (or they have not shown that they believe) in any religion. Bran is using his powers and yes he has connected with the Weirwood Tree, but they don’t show us him actually praying or saying anything about that. It’s him trying to figure out what he can do and how he can save everyone.
Meanwhile Dany and Jon have become somewhat like gods to the people that follow them, even though they aren’t or didn’t ask to be seen this way. Meanwhile, you have Beric that believes in the Red God and is trying to do good.

All that to say that the way I see it is that he just showing us the different ways people look for hope and how they have a need to follow a cause. He is also showing that it can be detrimental if the followers lose sight of the big picture and only focus on what they think is right.

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Raeslewolhn
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Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:18 pm

QueenofThrones wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:43 pm
I tend to think that none of the gods have power. Instead, people sometimes are able to tap into various magic sources, then they ascribe that to one god or another.

So I suppose the question then is why do the followers of the seven seem to not have magic and/or are not able to tap into said magic.

Well maybe it's a bit of a chicken or egg thing. Maybe some religions developed as a way to rationalize the existence of magic. Meanwhile others like the religion of the 7 are more like Earthly religion - they exist just to give mundane existence meaning...
This is very close to the way I interpret it. For instance, Dany has immense power, arguably the most, and believes in herself most of all. She's unsure about the gods but believes in magic. She respects others beliefs too. (Unless it seriously limits her and subjugates her, like her return to Vaes Dothrak).

Also, when Meli brings Jon back, she speaks of another who did that magic who 'shouldnt have been possible' , he wasn't following her religion EXACTLY but accomplished the magic, and she is often wrong, getting no or bad results, so her religion isn't always right, but that moment the magic was.

I often wonder how the HoBnW water got that way, but generally that religion also follows these rules. Magic that occurs through ritual and intention,with no God showing itself, like in the real world only more badass and kinetic. (Magic here doesn't effect the material world as far as I know)

However, I don't think it's like American Gods or Once or wtvr, where belief creates the world. I think it's like discovering metaphysics, where religions only offer part of that truth but also some fluff. The dynamics of ice and fire, the children being both, the raven serving to enable Bran to access more than he ever did before, (same with Arya and the faceless men as guide actually!) All point to strict metaphysical laws.

IMHO the Septons have no magic bc they stifle the individual, have many rules and abusive subjugating practices. Rh'ollor, the old gods, dragon magic, the many faced God, the drowned God, are all very empowering of the individual who uses that method/worships that God.

Tensor the Mage
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Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:44 am

We just completed our full rematch prior to the new season, and as I recall, the only supernatural power displayed was that of resurrection, and attributed to the Lord of Light. Thorns of Myr has resurrected Beric Dondarrion, and Melisandre resurrected Jon Snow. However, there is no evidence anyone else has ever been resurrected by any other priest of the Lord of Light, or any priest of any other religion.

Interestingly, Thoros does not consider himself to be particularly holy, and Melisandre was at the very lowest point of her faith when she resurrected Jon Snow. Melisandre also flatly told Thoros he should not have the power to resurrect. So, it would seem the resurrecting agent is independent of the zeal shown by the priest.

If there is no Lord of Light, or if that deity does not have the power over life and death, or if that power was not exercised for Beric and Jon, then was there magic involved? But magic in Game of Thrones needs the conscious involvement of the user (Meli's shadow demon, the Night's King raising the dead at Hardhome), right?

Then we get to Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong...

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QueenofThrones
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Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:04 am

Tensor the Mage wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:44 am
We just completed our full rematch prior to the new season, and as I recall, the only supernatural power displayed was that of resurrection, and attributed to the Lord of Light. Thorns of Myr has resurrected Beric Dondarrion, and Melisandre resurrected Jon Snow. However, there is no evidence anyone else has ever been resurrected by any other priest of the Lord of Light, or any priest of any other religion.

Interestingly, Thoros does not consider himself to be particularly holy, and Melisandre was at the very lowest point of her faith when she resurrected Jon Snow. Melisandre also flatly told Thoros he should not have the power to resurrect. So, it would seem the resurrecting agent is independent of the zeal shown by the priest.

If there is no Lord of Light, or if that deity does not have the power over life and death, or if that power was not exercised for Beric and Jon, then was there magic involved? But magic in Game of Thrones needs the conscious involvement of the user (Meli's shadow demon, the Night's King raising the dead at Hardhome), right?

Then we get to Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong...
"The Process" i love show Qyburn, his scenes with Cersei and the mountain were just Brilliant..

I think GRRM is trying to do frankenstein here in a way. More "mad science" than magic. Assuming there is a difference since such a think doesn't exactly exist IRL. But I it is certainly secular, whatever it is.

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Raeslewolhn
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Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:30 pm

QueenofThrones wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:04 am
Tensor the Mage wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:44 am
We just completed our full rematch prior to the new season, and as I recall, the only supernatural power displayed was that of resurrection, and attributed to the Lord of Light. Thorns of Myr has resurrected Beric Dondarrion, and Melisandre resurrected Jon Snow. However, there is no evidence anyone else has ever been resurrected by any other priest of the Lord of Light, or any priest of any other religion.

Interestingly, Thoros does not consider himself to be particularly holy, and Melisandre was at the very lowest point of her faith when she resurrected Jon Snow. Melisandre also flatly told Thoros he should not have the power to resurrect. So, it would seem the resurrecting agent is independent of the zeal shown by the priest.

If there is no Lord of Light, or if that deity does not have the power over life and death, or if that power was not exercised for Beric and Jon, then was there magic involved? But magic in Game of Thrones needs the conscious involvement of the user (Meli's shadow demon, the Night's King raising the dead at Hardhome), right?

Then we get to Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong...
"The Process" i love show Qyburn, his scenes with Cersei and the mountain were just Brilliant..

I think GRRM is trying to do frankenstein here in a way. More "mad science" than magic. Assuming there is a difference since such a think doesn't exactly exist IRL. But I it is certainly secular, whatever it is.
I completely agree.

And in terms of God required for magic, I don't think so. It's magic with or without one. There are things attributed to gods will that may or may not be. Magic abides certain laws, but can be by people, just a manipulation of the magical medium.

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Wimsey
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Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:12 am

evenwind wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:44 pm
But I’m hoping that there’s a lot more going on and that the apparent weakness of the New Gods is important to the endgame.

Anybody have any insights?
The New Gods almost certainly are not real: like gods in our world, people just invented them.

The Old Gods are real, but not really "gods," at least in the sense that they are hardly all powerful. Some weird symbiosis (magical for lack of any other term) lets some people link with weirwood trees and basically cloud storage memories. That's actually pretty effin' powerful. However, the Old Gods cannot make "miracles" happen: they cannot restore the dead to life or magically heal people or even fully defend themselves against the White Walkers.

R'hllor is real. It probably is the closest thing to a real "god" that we have out there. Of course, my silly hypothesis is that it's the remnants of Azor Ahai: that explains it's hatred of Walkers, Old Gods, etc. And R'hllor obviously has powers that look pretty deific. However, it also has limitations. To invert the old phrase, R'hllor no more comprehends humans than humans comprehend lobsters. Yes, it knows humans are there, and it can goad them with basic stimuli: but it does not know how to communicate accurately or anything like that.

The Walkers are real. And they have certain "god-like" powers. However, they seem to be even less pleasant than R'hllor.

There is nothing to indicate that the Drowned God or the Many-Faced God actually exist. The Drowned God in particular seems to be a baseless superstition, just like the 7. The Many-Faced God clearly is connected with magical or semi-magical abilities: but that could just be magic.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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Raeslewolhn
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Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:56 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:12 am
evenwind wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:44 pm
But I’m hoping that there’s a lot more going on and that the apparent weakness of the New Gods is important to the endgame.

Anybody have any insights?
The New Gods almost certainly are not real: like gods in our world, people just invented them.

The Old Gods are real, but not really "gods," at least in the sense that they are hardly all powerful. Some weird symbiosis (magical for lack of any other term) lets some people link with weirwood trees and basically cloud storage memories. That's actually pretty effin' powerful. However, the Old Gods cannot make "miracles" happen: they cannot restore the dead to life or magically heal people or even fully defend themselves against the White Walkers.

R'hllor is real. It probably is the closest thing to a real "god" that we have out there. Of course, my silly hypothesis is that it's the remnants of Azor Ahai: that explains it's hatred of Walkers, Old Gods, etc. And R'hllor obviously has powers that look pretty deific. However, it also has limitations. To invert the old phrase, R'hllor no more comprehends humans than humans comprehend lobsters. Yes, it knows humans are there, and it can goad them with basic stimuli: but it does not know how to communicate accurately or anything like that.

The Walkers are real. And they have certain "god-like" powers. However, they seem to be even less pleasant than R'hllor.

There is nothing to indicate that the Drowned God or the Many-Faced God actually exist. The Drowned God in particular seems to be a baseless superstition, just like the 7. The Many-Faced God clearly is connected with magical or semi-magical abilities: but that could just be magic.
I generally agree. Though, I'd wager Rh'ollor and WW given status as higher being, but neither are creators of the world nor have complete control of it the way ppl usually define God today.

Also, I've been thinking, in Stark contrast to my own earlier view, that the 7, bc they worship anthropomorphized deities are actually just worshipping humans. Every other religion and magic is alien or more powerful than us, but our being alive is magical in it's own way. The problem with the faith militant is warrior judgment and one father giving it out. They don't show mother's mercy or kindness to people like the stranger teaches. So the magic they actually have is just boring human life. A mother's love is one part of that.

Also, Margaery did not deserve all that, Loras doesn't deserve that. It's disproportionate and part evil, part good (feeding the poor was good), like humans are.

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