Have I gone too far with my butt hurtedness over S6?

LatrineDiggerBrian
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Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:35 am

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:57 am

Needle wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:48 pm
Now that the show is sort of seperating itself from the books (we can only wait for TWOW to confirm or deny this) obviously the characters are going to be a bit weaker, and the focus is mainly going to be on the visual stuff. It's honestly bound to happen, since they don't have GRRM's genius writing to rely on. But is season 7 going to be terrible? Absolutely not. I have my own critiques on the show, and some of the adaptation choices they made make me a bit mad, but that still gets weighed down by other things I find praiseworthy. People choose to focus only on the bad things, they forget that the show does have some incredible moments. Some of which we didn't even get in the books (Arya and Tywin, Robert and Cersei's private scenes, hell, they even made Gendry a much more important character on the show IMO).

Truth is, no matter how much of a good writer the screenwriter is, book to movie/tv adaptations are never perfect. Always keep in mind that it could've been so much worse.
Say a magical genie gives me a coin and gives me a chance to toss it. If it lands on one side the show will change into something 100% better, but if it lands on the opposite side, we would get the ASOIAF equivalent of Shyamalan's Avatar adaptation, I would throw the coin away and never look back. We should be more content with what we have. As long as we agree that the book-canon is always more reliable than the show-canon, I don't see any reason to hate the show.

And I have to disagree with you on the white walkers thing. Nearly every period drama focuses solely on politics, but GoT and ASOIAF have magic and legendary creatures in it, so it's kinda obvious the story will turn into fighting beasts rather than rebelling against an evil queen. Not to mention many conflicts in the story emerge because of realistic human acts. Betrayal, dishonesty, manipulation, selfishness, these are all real human issues we still have today. Cersei, and the majority of the world, ignoring the white walker threat is another example how selfish and pessimistic people can be. Jon, The Watch, the wildlings, they all tell the truth, they're all warning everybody, but instead of listening to them, the rest of the lords keep themselves busy in pointless things such as politics. GRRM uses many of his realistic ideologies in the books. Wars lead to casualties and pain, the brave and honest hero doesn't always win, and the selfish meddling of the rich only hurts the poor.
In fact I'm willing to bet that the threat of the white walkers is only going to make politics a much more discussed topic, especially in season 7. Jon will need to ally with Dany, and there's going to be the whole Euron and Cersei thing going on. Politics are an important factor to the story, it won't disappear.
I actually have a tremendous amount of respect for D & D. I don't take their writing for granted at all. I think they've done a wonderful job and I think they could've chosen 1000 other writers and none would have done as good a job as them. There are many many examples like Arya and Tywin, plus they've enhanced many things from the book. They've made 1000s upon 1000s of decisions, some big, but many small that have made the show what it is. They have cut out silly stuff like talking ravens, singing fools, glamouring, and other such things that just wouldn't have fit. So yes, I am very content with what we've been given, and I guess it's part of the reason why I'm wondering: am I underestimating these guys too much?

BTW I like the magic in ASOIAF, I just don't like the White Walkers. And I group the "realistic human acts" you mention in the same category as politics so that's what I mean when I say politics.

LatrineDiggerBrian
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:35 am

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:00 am

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:44 pm
Looking at the season 7 trailers, I don't know if the season can win you over. There's going to be much more emphasis on action scenes/battles than on politics/characters. And to be fair, the books will head in roughly the same direction and the Whitewalker plot will gain more and more traction. But think of the characters we have left and think that it might be possible for some to be more preoccupied with politics than humanity's survival... those are the characters who will cause trouble in an already serious situation.

The quality of the writing has also been declining post-season 4 and you can tell that: 1. D&D are struggling without any books left to guide them and 2. D&D want to end the show so they can move on to other projects and that means the show will have a lot of rushed storylines and plot holes, as the writers try to hit whatever key element GRRM put down in his outline. However, think that not all characters can fight Whitewalkers. There has to be something left to do for the characters who aren't doing that. Also, just because there is a zombie apocalypse coming, that doesn't mean that all characters will lose sight of the political aspect of the story and the fight for the iron throne. Greed and the thirst for power exist in many characters even in the most dire of situations.

Think that that unlike most US shows, GoT has a clear ending point (there's no meandering and we're going to get some closure, as the book series will probably never be finished). The writing really is the only obvious weak spot and the show is relying on the goodwill from early seasons, when the writing for the majority of the characters was decent and character development existed. But you only have 7 episodes this season and 6 in the last one, so it's not a huge amount of your time that's wasted.

At this point, I'd say that you can try watching the rest of the show to at least get some kind of ending. It's not like it has a lot of seasons left and you've already made it this far. Might as well. And yes keep your expectations low. Better safe than sorry.
Fair enough, this is a logical post. Though I did enjoy S5 quite a bit, but I think you're right there has been a very gradual decline since S4. But of course, it's all relative to the expectations that have been set by the show. It's all still very good, even in S6 there were some things I enjoyed a lot. My expectations definitely are low, but I just wonder if they're too low? But I'm fine with that because there's nowhere to go but up.

LatrineDiggerBrian
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:35 am

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:02 am

Raeslewolhn wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:35 pm
LatrineDiggerBrian wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:41 am
I was just sitting here thinking tonight: we're 10 days away and I've barely paid any mind to the new GoT season. I only periodically check the headlines on this site and sometimes post a comment, but that's about it. Compare this to the offseason between S3 and S4, when I rewatched the S1-S3 too many times to count and bought all the DVDs and watched every special feature and listened to every commentary. It was the height of my fandom, and I honest to God had never been so obsessed with anything in my life. The off seasons before S5 and S6 were similar, if only a little less intense. Like a huge dork, I timed my rewatch of the earlier seasons with the exact amount of days before the premiere so I would've watched the last episode of the previous season the day before the finale.

Fast forward to now and like I've said, GoT is barely on my radar. It's a shocking turn of events for me. I mean, this was the show that inspired me to become a writer. It was the show I could not stop talking about or thinking about, and now I'm not even especially looking forward to the premiere.

Anyone who has read my comments on S6 in the articles knows my opinion on it and I don't feel like repeating it. But I just wonder if I've gone too far, or was I legitimately scarred by S6? Is the story so far beyond reproach for me that it cannot be salvaged? I don't think so. And there were plenty of things that I loved about S6, but there were also so many colossal disappointments that just overshadowed everything for me.

I wonder if S7 can win me back? I tend to lean towards no, I think the show's larger audience coupled with being off the books point to much less dynamic story telling. Plus, I really really really hate zombies, I hate the White Walkers. A story where the political intrigue has been the most fascinating aspect now turns into a great war against some mindless, not scary enemy. I don't know though, is there a chance S7 could blow me away? Yeah I guess, but I'm only putting it at about 30%. We'll see, I hope to be pleasantly surprised as I'm going in with low expectations.
I think you can get wonback! I lapsed in fan love between 5 and 6. I was stoked to see some things,and I missed Bran plots, but it wasn't really on my radar between 5 and 6, and I thought most of S5 was really slow and meh for half the episodes, despite my intense love in s1-4. But I'm totallllllly stoked for S7!
I actually didn't mind S5. I put it in the same stratosphere as S1-4, but I think would rank it last of those. But yeah, I'm hoping I can be won back. At least this year I haven't really had the agonizing wait as in the past.

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Wimsey
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Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:22 am

Dee Stark wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:20 am
Very well said.

Also, after 5 seasons, there is no need for character development, things come together, we get solutions and endings leading up to the final act.
Well, not quite no need, but there is much less need! At this point, the storytelling is relying on the characters already having been developed. Now, there is some bit of evolution of characters happening (which I think people sometimes confuse with character development), but much of the story at this point is based on the initial development from Seasons 1-2 coupled with the dynamic development (= evolution) of the characters since then.

On pure TV terms, the show has been getting better each year, and in many ways, it is actually a better TV show without the books than with the books: although B&W were very good at adapting the book's plotlines to fit the new medium, adapted plotlines still have intrinsic constraints that de novo plotlines do not. (And, no, this does not mean "stick closer to the book!": the SoI&F books are OK novels, but novels are awful scripts under the best of circumstances!)

I do find the claim that the show has become all about White Walkers and Zombies to be bizarre: they figured directly in only one storyline last year (Bran's) and only indirectly in another joined storyline (Jon's and Sansa's). Where were they in the Daenerys, Arya, Tyrion, etc., storylines? Similarly, I find the claim that the politics are gone equally bizarre. The story last year was all about conflicted political goals, both public and private.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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Dee Stark
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Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:04 pm

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:10 am

Wimsey wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:22 am
Dee Stark wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:20 am
Very well said.

Also, after 5 seasons, there is no need for character development, things come together, we get solutions and endings leading up to the final act.
Well, not quite no need, but there is much less need! At this point, the storytelling is relying on the characters already having been developed. Now, there is some bit of evolution of characters happening (which I think people sometimes confuse with character development), but much of the story at this point is based on the initial development from Seasons 1-2 coupled with the dynamic development (= evolution) of the characters since then.

On pure TV terms, the show has been getting better each year, and in many ways, it is actually a better TV show without the books than with the books: although B&W were very good at adapting the book's plotlines to fit the new medium, adapted plotlines still have intrinsic constraints that de novo plotlines do not. (And, no, this does not mean "stick closer to the book!": the SoI&F books are OK novels, but novels are awful scripts under the best of circumstances!)

I do find the claim that the show has become all about White Walkers and Zombies to be bizarre: they figured directly in only one storyline last year (Bran's) and only indirectly in another joined storyline (Jon's and Sansa's). Where were they in the Daenerys, Arya, Tyrion, etc., storylines? Similarly, I find the claim that the politics are gone equally bizarre. The story last year was all about conflicted political goals, both public and private.

Thank you! You say it so much better than I do

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:27 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:22 am
Dee Stark wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:20 am
Very well said.

Also, after 5 seasons, there is no need for character development, things come together, we get solutions and endings leading up to the final act.
Well, not quite no need, but there is much less need! At this point, the storytelling is relying on the characters already having been developed. Now, there is some bit of evolution of characters happening (which I think people sometimes confuse with character development), but much of the story at this point is based on the initial development from Seasons 1-2 coupled with the dynamic development (= evolution) of the characters since then.

On pure TV terms, the show has been getting better each year, and in many ways, it is actually a better TV show without the books than with the books: although B&W were very good at adapting the book's plotlines to fit the new medium, adapted plotlines still have intrinsic constraints that de novo plotlines do not. (And, no, this does not mean "stick closer to the book!": the SoI&F books are OK novels, but novels are awful scripts under the best of circumstances!)

I do find the claim that the show has become all about White Walkers and Zombies to be bizarre: they figured directly in only one storyline last year (Bran's) and only indirectly in another joined storyline (Jon's and Sansa's). Where were they in the Daenerys, Arya, Tyrion, etc., storylines? Similarly, I find the claim that the politics are gone equally bizarre. The story last year was all about conflicted political goals, both public and private.
I agree, upvote

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jjddss
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Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:02 pm

Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:14 am

My only thought would be: You have made it this far. Obviously it was important to you at some point, enough to influence your life in some major ways it seems. So with only, what? 13 episodes left? Might as well finish the ride. I have the same feelings about The Walking Dead. I USED to love it the first couple of seasons. I even liked The Governor plot line but somewhere along the way I just got tired of it and yet I still watch it and discuss it with friends just because I have some minor investment in it from the love of the early seasons. But I mostly don't enjoy it and don't like the majority of characters, think the acting is terrible etc. Haha. But I feel like I'll watch it till the end just to see what the end actually is. No relationship burns as brightly 6 or 7 years in as it did when you first GoT together. Your butt will heal. We've been hearing Winter Is Coming for so long, aren't you at all curious to see it when it arrives? Haha. I hope you are pleasantly surprised with the last two seasons. And return to the fandom with vigor. :)

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Grandmaester Flash
Posts: 77
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Location: England

Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:54 am

My diagnosis is haemorrhoids. This is a common cause of a sore arse.
Probably a result of sitting too long watching GoT.

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