Theories, Wild Theories, & General Lunacy

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GeraltOfRivia
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:09 pm

Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:44 pm
Ginevra wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:51 pm

So, please don't throw eggs, especially dragon eggs, but I think that Dany and Tyrion might be villains. Villains we are meant to love, yes, but villains nonetheless. And so maybe anti-villains would be a better term.

(I really hope Dragonbringer doesn't see this because he already hates me. I don't mean any of my ideas to be taken personally, and all are very free to disagree with me, though I hope you won't attack me personally or anyone else for a difference of opinion.)

Dany and Tyrion are bringing hundreds of thousands of the most dangerous peoples Westeros has ever seen straight to this land. Dany has made them all bloodriders, which in some khalasars entitles them to everything the khal has. "Mi casa es su casa." My Seven Kingdoms is your Seven Kingdoms. Rapists. Murderers. Theives. Plunderers. Slavers. How ever will she keep them all in line?


Jon Snow is the ONLY character on the show who has ONLY done anything for others, and hasn't at all demonstrated any villainous traits. And I do not like to use that word because some people misunderstand its meaning... think Sansa in season 6 is a villain (or in general) LOL.... Arya is more of a "villain" then Sansa is.
Jon is not the only one.
Just a guy full of sarcasm, flaws and himself.

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Dee Stark
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:11 pm

I was talking about the "main" characters....

One can argue Bran as well.

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Flayed Potatoes
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:14 pm

Ginevra wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:05 pm

The devil is in the details, and in this case, GRRM = the devil. He has said before that he loves exploring the details of what makes a good ruler, not just a good conqueror, and so I too am certain this will be explored to his heart's delight.
There's also the issue of perspective. We're in Dany's head and we see her journey, but the other characters don't. They can hear things she's done or events that have happened and formed an opinion.

I can't help but reference this Arianne quote (putting it in spoilers just in case):
► Show Spoiler

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GeraltOfRivia
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:17 pm

Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:56 pm
Also... Geralt... Where can I read more about Azor Ahai, The Prince who Was Promised, and The Last Hero???
Few videos on this. I think videos can be more fun on this because it is rather a complex subject.


Alt Shift - X is probably the best, it's a shortened version of this prophecy, main candidates and what it is about.

https://youtu.be/O3o2LqFZcGU

Other related videos worthy of watching.


Jon, Dany and Azor Ahai Reborn prophecy.

https://youtu.be/GS5S59VfHFE

Rhaegar, Azor Ahai Reborn.

https://youtu.be/Zu8I_R-VGcI
Just a guy full of sarcasm, flaws and himself.

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GeraltOfRivia
Posts: 31
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:19 pm

Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:11 pm
I was talking about the "main" characters....

One can argue Bran as well.
Daenerys. She and Jon are very similar in this, Jon perhaps a bit more selfless. Dragonbringer is not going to like this comment. :D
Just a guy full of sarcasm, flaws and himself.

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Jay Targ
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:30 pm

GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:19 pm
Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:11 pm
I was talking about the "main" characters....

One can argue Bran as well.
Daenerys. She and Jon are very similar in this, Jon perhaps a bit more selfless. Dragonbringer is not going to like this comment. :D
Don't want to answer for Dee but I think what she meant is that Jon is the only one who does this without demonstrating negative/villainous traits.
Daenerys has arguably done the most selfless thing in the series by freeing the slaves (especially post-Astapor) but she has shown a ruthlessness that Jon hasn't shown.
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Casso
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:50 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:00 pm
Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:54 pm

No I don't think they are babies either. What I was trying to say is she knowingly killed his sons not knowing for sure the extent of their involvement.
I probably would have done the same if it were me.. not gonna lie. HAHAHA. I love my family more than anything
During the siege of Riverrun, the Frey brothers boast publicly to the Blackfish (when they are holding a knife at Edmure's throat) that they killed Catelyn and Talisa, so I assume it would be public knowledge that they were involved. Those two don't seem like the bashful type :lol:
Also, Arya specifically overheard Frey soldiers say that Black Walder killed Catelyn ("Black Walder shut her up right quick. None of the Starks had much to say about the end of that meal."), just before they started bragging about how they mutilated Robb's corpse. Arya was also disguised as a servant at the Twins long enough to observe which Freys were Lord Walder's most trusted accomplices.

While Arya does seem to get a disturbing amount of enjoyment out of killing her enemies, I really can't see any of her killings (direct or indirect) as unjustified or villainous. While she isn't acting under the authority of any official justice system, the vigilante justice she dispenses is relatively in line with the punishments that would be considered normal in that society, and if anything, she seems more concerned than the official justice system with making sure she actually targets the people responsible for doing the wrong they are accused of.

Stable boy: Self-defense
The Tickler: She witnessed him torturing people to death.
Amory Lorch & Lannister guards at Harrenhal: Killing enemy combatants in war time to protect herself
Frey soldiers: Executed for their admitted role in a mass-murder. She literally interrupted them bragging about killing her family.
Sick girl at HoBaW: Euthanasia
Insurance Man: Not killed, but even if she had killed him, this could be seen as a justified punishment for cheating his customers' families
Meryn Trant: Killed Syrio Forel, involved in Lannister slaughter of Ned's household guards. Also, abusing young girls
Lady Crane: Arya's conscience prevented her from killing Lady Crane, and she then took an enormous risk to herself to try to protect her.
The Waif: Self-defense
Walder Frey & Sons: Executed for murder and violation of guest right.

While Arya's vigilante justice may not be quite the somber style that Ned, Robb, or Jon would use to dispense justice, I would argue that it is as morally justified, if not more so in some cases. For example, Ned executing the Night's Watch deserter was legally acceptable under their laws, but it seems a bit unfair to behead a terrified guy who ran away from something really horrifying, without even giving him a trial, or even listening seriously to what he had to say, yet I don't see many people calling Ned a villain for this, nor do I consider Ned a villain.

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Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
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Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm

Casso wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:50 pm
All very good points and I agree with everything. I totally forgot about the exact dialogue between the soldiers right after the wedding.

She actually reminds me of Batman a little bit.

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GeraltOfRivia
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:03 am

Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:07 pm

Jay Targ wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:30 pm
GeraltOfRivia wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:19 pm
Dee Stark wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:11 pm
I was talking about the "main" characters....

One can argue Bran as well.
Daenerys. She and Jon are very similar in this, Jon perhaps a bit more selfless. Dragonbringer is not going to like this comment. :D
Don't want to answer for Dee but I think what she meant is that Jon is the only one who does this without demonstrating negative/villainous traits.
Daenerys has arguably done the most selfless thing in the series by freeing the slaves (especially post-Astapor) but she has shown a ruthlessness that Jon hasn't shown.
I can agree with this. They certainly do like to play around with Targaryen ruthlessness.
Just a guy full of sarcasm, flaws and himself.

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QueenofThrones
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Location: New York

Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:09 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:14 pm
Ginevra wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:05 pm

The devil is in the details, and in this case, GRRM = the devil. He has said before that he loves exploring the details of what makes a good ruler, not just a good conqueror, and so I too am certain this will be explored to his heart's delight.
There's also the issue of perspective. We're in Dany's head and we see her journey, but the other characters don't. They can hear things she's done or events that have happened and formed an opinion.

I can't help but reference this Arianne quote (putting it in spoilers just in case):
I've read the books as well. Yes, during ADWD he decided he wanted to explore the details of ruling... and in my opinion, as a result he largely failed to produce a compelling narrative for either Jon or Dany in that role. If he's ever going to finish the books - which I doubt heavily in any case - he's going to have to get around to telling the story he initially intended to. That's the story he told D&D after S2 was written and that's the story that we'll see on screen. Maybe GRRM could change his mind on that, but I doubt it and in any case I don't think we'll ever get a chance to read it.

Until this season, and still in the books, Dany has been marking time waiting for Westeros to be ready for her and her dragons and army. Now she is there. And neither 13 episodes nor 2 books is nearly enough time to include some kind of "Dany convincingly turns evil" arc. Will she end up fighting people we like? Probably. Will there be problems? Of course - when have there not been problems and complications for every character? I certainly hope to see a lot of difficult and fraught negotiations between parties with conflicting histories and loyalties. That's what good GoT drama is made from.

Yet at the heart of her narrative, Dany has always been a savior. She can't stand the idea of seeing people suffer needlessly. And it just so happens that Westeros is in need of a savior just as she's landing. First, from the tyranny of Cersei, who the common people despise for very good reason. And second from what's going on in the North. There, alliance with people like Jon (a kindred spirit in her savior-complex) will be essential, and she will be advised as such by Tyrion.

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