The Problem with Winterfell

Meg22
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Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:21 am

arabian wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:18 pm
I just can't. You're completely ignoring every single point of mine.
Refuting it is what I'm doing. You haven't made any points that make sense to me.

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arabian
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Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:04 am

OK, I'm going to try this one more time.

1. Just because both characters are in a scene does not make it from both points of view. The Sansa/Arya scenes are from Sansa's perspective. She is the lead in the scenes. She takes in the information, she leads the conversations. She reacts to what Arya says. When the scenes finish, she is the one we are left with her response. Arya is the supporting player in the scene.

2. Arya is not an assassin. She did not kill the ship financier. She killed Meryn Trant. She did not kill the actress because she was a good person; instead she killed the younger actress who hired the Faceless Men to kill the actress. Arya has NEVER killed anyone who did not try to kill or kill someone else who was good and decent. An assassin is a killer for hire or for fanatical/religious reasons. Arya is not that. She has only killed to avenge her loved ones or to save herself or those she cares about/loves who are in danger. That is not an assassin.

3. Arya is not and never has been jealous of Sansa and/or is dealing with childhood resentments. Arya did not want anything Sansa had/was as a child. They were opposites in every way. The *only* thing you could point to was that Catelyn seemed to favor Sansa a bit more because of the ladylike way in that Sansa behaved and Arya was a bit jealous of that, but she knew that Catelyn loved her. However, if you were to go that route, you would have to then flip it on its head because Sansa was a bit jealous of the way that Ned seemed to favor Arya because she was similar to Lyanna and was a bit jealous of Arya because of that, but she knew that Ned loved her. So, no, Arya is jealous of Sansa, no lingering childhood resentment. They just didn't get along as children because they were so different, but that goes both ways.

4. I don't know if you have skimmed my responses or if I have not made it clear enough. I do like Sansa's storyline. I LIKE getting this from her perspective and I think it's a good one. The issue is that we are only getting it from her point of view. And it's frustrating because unless you're a Sansa fan who is so-so on Arya and Bran (or flat-out dislike them) you won't like this story. But if we were getting points of view of all three, man, this could have been a GLORIOUS Winterfell story.

5. Go back to #3. Because I am such an Arya-fan, I see where she is coming from. Arya is not seeing this through childhood resentment, but rather her experience of betrayal upon betrayal. Remember when Arya first arrived she was glad to see Sansa. They hugged, they connected in a way we had never seen them do as children. And THEN she heard her not standing up for Jon in a way that she perceived as betrayal. And THEN she found a message in Sansa's handwriting that betrayed Robb. This was paired with the fact that when Ned was beheaded she had seen Sansa standing right beside Joffrey and Cersei (and had not seen Sansa fall apart because Yoren had hid her face and taken her away by then). After that, she had been betrayed by the Brotherhood, the Freys had betrayed her family, Jacquen had betrayed her by not being the "friend" she thought he was, she had heard that Theon had betrayed Robb and killed her brothers, taken over Winterfell, etc. So all she had known was betrayal upon betrayal. Her family had been decimated (as far as she knew) by betrayal after betrayal. And then she hears her sister "betraying" Jon. Reads, in her sister's own hand, words of betrayal that helped set up Robb's demise. That is what is fueling her interaction with Sansa.

Unfortunately, it is left to fans of Arya who deeply know the character and remember all of this stuff to realize that because it certainly is barely being touched upon on the show. However, were we seeing things from her perspective and not just Sansa's, this would be working. And it could organically be put in. Have her practicing with Brienne, take a break and talk about why she didn't go with her when they first met. The Hound mentioned Jaime's sword, that brings up betrayal. Brienne talks about honor, etc. Discussion of the Hound flows from there, how he betrayed Joffrey, the Lannisters, more thoughts, idea of betrayal, how they betrayed her father, etc. that shaped her life. It all flows naturally. That way viewers get the idea how strongly it is a part of her. Shortly after scenes of this, she finds the message. Boom, we have that connection. And we understand--because we have Arya's point of view--why she's not talking to Sansa. We already know why Sansa's not talking to Arya because she's kinda freaking out over who and what Arya has become.

Therefore, instead of just being mad at Arya, we get both points of view and we're aching for both of them--TALK TO EACH OTHER!--but we get it and we feel so desperately for the both of them. Meanwhile, Bran is having awesome visions, showing us cool stuff happening past and present in Westeros. There you go, the Winterfell storyline works for everyone... Sansa, Arya, Bran, lovers of logic, general fans alike. Ah well.
Gendry: You shouldn't insult people that are bigger than you are.
Arya: Then I wouldn't get to insult anyone.

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QueenofThrones
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:20 am

I'll repost some comments I made on watchers (under the glass candle dialog) since I think they address some of the points you raise. I don' agree with your thesis that everythign has been from Sansa's perspective. I feel like I understand Arya's perspective pretty well I think - and I'm not even an Arya fan. Now, they are positioning Arya as more of an antagonist here, but she did from any rational perspective threaten her safety so... she kind of is? Also the reason why Bran has not been featured more could not be more obvious, IMO. Bran knows WAY too much. He is being careful to only say and do exaaactly what is needed for the good of all. And what is needed is not necessarily to intervene in a squabble between his siblings. For all we know, maybe what is needed is for Sansa or Arya to actually die. Or maybe he will eventually intervene, but not yet. Remember Bran's perspective is now that of an omniscient demi-God - the boy we knew is dead. In any case, we did get the character developing scene with Meera which all but spelled this out (and was heartbreaking). Sansa wasn't in sight there.

I will admit upfront that I was cheesed as hell last season when Sansa and Jon drama occurred, and also Arya’s arc in Braavos was the stupidest shit ever (esp the end). However, I feel like those bothered me more than this because those particular arcs were not, IMO, organic. In the case of Jon/Sansa I felt OK about Sansa’s trust issues, but it went too far and there was an easy fix – Sansa tells Jon about the Vale knights at the last minute – it doesn’t change anything, but it resolves the tension in a satisfactory way. Arya’s plot was incomprehensible and moronic almost from start to finish, but the worst of it was her standing around undisguised like an arrogant idiot and getting stabbed to death. However I find Arya and Sansa’s conflict MUCH more organic for several reasons.

Reason 1: Arya and Sansa parted on poor terms. I have no trouble believing that Arya thinks Sansa cared more about Joffery than her father. Arya doesn’t know what Sansa has been through. She doesn’t know that Sansa believed Joff was a monster from that moment – and in any case, the fact that Sansa didn’t think he as a Monster after Mycah already makes Sansa very complicit

Reason 2: Arya still believes in Black and White Morality for the most part. This is why she left the Hound for dead (basically torturing him) - because of Mycah (yes I know some think she didn't kill him because it would be off-list but her face kind of told it all here). This is why she could never be a faceless man - why she couldn’t kill the actress in s6 and why she killed Trant instead of the salesman. She almost killed those Lannister Guardsmen and only didn’t because they proved themselves so freaking adorably wholesome. She wiped out an entire family because they were complicit in the death of her family. She believes Sansa is complicit in the death of Ned. The only reason she hasn’t killed Sansa already is because she is family.

Reason 3: Arya is not actually a master of subterfuge. Having the faces makes her very good at disguise, but that doesn't mean she's actually subtle. It was demonstrated last season and earlier that she is often arrogant & hot headed (s6e7, previously she killed several people on impulse...). I easily believe she would be played by Littlefinger - he literally is the master of the game.

Reason 4: I believe Sansa sent Brienne away for 2 reasons. First, she’s afraid to go to King’s Landing because Cersei would almost certainly kill her. Second, she’s desperately afraid of Arya and for very good reason. Sansa thinks Brienne will prevent her from taking pre-emptive action against Arya. I don’t think Sansa would harm Arya, but she might try to lock her up. I think Brienne would not be cool with this (obvs).

Ultimately, both of them are behaving badly and not thinking as rationally as they should. Sansa is acting out of fear. Arya out of Rage.

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Not Littlefinger
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:28 am

QueenofThrones wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:20 am
I'll repost some comments I made on watchers (under the glass candle dialog) since I think they address some of the points you raise. I don' agree with your thesis that everythign has been from Sansa's perspective. I feel like I understand Arya's perspective pretty well I think - and I'm not even an Arya fan. Now, they are positioning Arya as more of an antagonist here, but she did from any rational perspective threaten her safety so... she kind of is? Also the reason why Bran has not been featured more could not be more obvious, IMO. Bran knows WAY too much. He is being careful to only say and do exaaactly what is needed for the good of all. And what is needed is not necessarily to intervene in a squabble between his siblings. For all we know, maybe what is needed is for Sansa or Arya to actually die. Or maybe he will eventually intervene, but not yet. Remember Bran's perspective is now that of an omniscient demi-God - the boy we knew is dead. In any case, we did get the character developing scene with Meera which all but spelled this out (and was heartbreaking). Sansa wasn't in sight there.

I will admit upfront that I was cheesed as hell last season when Sansa and Jon drama occurred, and also Arya’s arc in Braavos was the stupidest shit ever (esp the end). However, I feel like those bothered me more than this because those particular arcs were not, IMO, organic. In the case of Jon/Sansa I felt OK about Sansa’s trust issues, but it went too far and there was an easy fix – Sansa tells Jon about the Vale knights at the last minute – it doesn’t change anything, but it resolves the tension in a satisfactory way. Arya’s plot was incomprehensible and moronic almost from start to finish, but the worst of it was her standing around undisguised like an arrogant idiot and getting stabbed to death. However I find Arya and Sansa’s conflict MUCH more organic for several reasons.

Reason 1: Arya and Sansa parted on poor terms. I have no trouble believing that Arya thinks Sansa cared more about Joffery than her father. Arya doesn’t know what Sansa has been through. She doesn’t know that Sansa believed Joff was a monster from that moment – and in any case, the fact that Sansa didn’t think he as a Monster after Mycah already makes Sansa very complicit

Reason 2: Arya still believes in Black and White Morality for the most part. This is why she left the Hound for dead (basically torturing him) - because of Mycah (yes I know some think she didn't kill him because it would be off-list but her face kind of told it all here). This is why she could never be a faceless man - why she couldn’t kill the actress in s6 and why she killed Trant instead of the salesman. She almost killed those Lannister Guardsmen and only didn’t because they proved themselves so freaking adorably wholesome. She wiped out an entire family because they were complicit in the death of her family. She believes Sansa is complicit in the death of Ned. The only reason she hasn’t killed Sansa already is because she is family.

Reason 3: Arya is not actually a master of subterfuge. Having the faces makes her very good at disguise, but that doesn't mean she's actually subtle. It was demonstrated last season and earlier that she is often arrogant & hot headed (s6e7, previously she killed several people on impulse...). I easily believe she would be played by Littlefinger - he literally is the master of the game.

Reason 4: I believe Sansa sent Brienne away for 2 reasons. First, she’s afraid to go to King’s Landing because Cersei would almost certainly kill her. Second, she’s desperately afraid of Arya and for very good reason. Sansa thinks Brienne will prevent her from taking pre-emptive action against Arya. I don’t think Sansa would harm Arya, but she might try to lock her up. I think Brienne would not be cool with this (obvs).

Ultimately, both of them are behaving badly and not thinking as rationally as they should. Sansa is acting out of fear. Arya out of Rage.
I couldn't put any of that better myself. The conflict between Sansa and Arya doesn't seem "manufactured" to me at all, and that's what I think you explained best. People seem to forget the animosity between the two in Season 1 and expect them to both be willing to work together because they are family and that's what makes a good "reunion story." But one of the reasons that I love this show is because we are forced to understand other character's points of view and why that might cause them to act differently than we expect. We watched Sansa go through what she had to in order to get our of KL, return north, and retake Winterfell. Arya hasn't. What she remembers is the fiasco with Mycah where Sansa lied to protect Joffery. Then, when Ned wanted to leave KL, Sansa begged him to stay not only because she loved Joffery, but also because she wanted to be queen. Then Arya returns, and what does she find? A raven scroll from Sansa ordering Robb to swear allegiance to her betrothed. Her suspicions of Sansa, from her perspective, are perfectly justified.

And to what you said, I'm not an Arya fan either. But I can see that her reasoning makes sense.

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Raeslewolhn
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Yeah, let's see what everyone thinks after Sunday. The season isn't complete yet so the pt of the story isn't fleshed out enough

Meg22
Posts: 60
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:26 am

arabian wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:04 am
OK, I'm going to try this one more time.

1. Just because both characters are in a scene does not make it from both points of view. The Sansa/Arya scenes are from Sansa's perspective. She is the lead in the scenes. She takes in the information, she leads the conversations. She reacts to what Arya says. When the scenes finish, she is the one we are left with her response. Arya is the supporting player in the scene.

2. Arya is not an assassin. She did not kill the ship financier. She killed Meryn Trant. She did not kill the actress because she was a good person; instead she killed the younger actress who hired the Faceless Men to kill the actress. Arya has NEVER killed anyone who did not try to kill or kill someone else who was good and decent. An assassin is a killer for hire or for fanatical/religious reasons. Arya is not that. She has only killed to avenge her loved ones or to save herself or those she cares about/loves who are in danger. That is not an assassin.

3. Arya is not and never has been jealous of Sansa and/or is dealing with childhood resentments. Arya did not want anything Sansa had/was as a child. They were opposites in every way. The *only* thing you could point to was that Catelyn seemed to favor Sansa a bit more because of the ladylike way in that Sansa behaved and Arya was a bit jealous of that, but she knew that Catelyn loved her. However, if you were to go that route, you would have to then flip it on its head because Sansa was a bit jealous of the way that Ned seemed to favor Arya because she was similar to Lyanna and was a bit jealous of Arya because of that, but she knew that Ned loved her. So, no, Arya is jealous of Sansa, no lingering childhood resentment. They just didn't get along as children because they were so different, but that goes both ways.

4. I don't know if you have skimmed my responses or if I have not made it clear enough. I do like Sansa's storyline. I LIKE getting this from her perspective and I think it's a good one. The issue is that we are only getting it from her point of view. And it's frustrating because unless you're a Sansa fan who is so-so on Arya and Bran (or flat-out dislike them) you won't like this story. But if we were getting points of view of all three, man, this could have been a GLORIOUS Winterfell story.

5. Go back to #3. Because I am such an Arya-fan, I see where she is coming from. Arya is not seeing this through childhood resentment, but rather her experience of betrayal upon betrayal. Remember when Arya first arrived she was glad to see Sansa. They hugged, they connected in a way we had never seen them do as children. And THEN she heard her not standing up for Jon in a way that she perceived as betrayal. And THEN she found a message in Sansa's handwriting that betrayed Robb. This was paired with the fact that when Ned was beheaded she had seen Sansa standing right beside Joffrey and Cersei (and had not seen Sansa fall apart because Yoren had hid her face and taken her away by then). After that, she had been betrayed by the Brotherhood, the Freys had betrayed her family, Jacquen had betrayed her by not being the "friend" she thought he was, she had heard that Theon had betrayed Robb and killed her brothers, taken over Winterfell, etc. So all she had known was betrayal upon betrayal. Her family had been decimated (as far as she knew) by betrayal after betrayal. And then she hears her sister "betraying" Jon. Reads, in her sister's own hand, words of betrayal that helped set up Robb's demise. That is what is fueling her interaction with Sansa.

Unfortunately, it is left to fans of Arya who deeply know the character and remember all of this stuff to realize that because it certainly is barely being touched upon on the show. However, were we seeing things from her perspective and not just Sansa's, this would be working. And it could organically be put in. Have her practicing with Brienne, take a break and talk about why she didn't go with her when they first met. The Hound mentioned Jaime's sword, that brings up betrayal. Brienne talks about honor, etc. Discussion of the Hound flows from there, how he betrayed Joffrey, the Lannisters, more thoughts, idea of betrayal, how they betrayed her father, etc. that shaped her life. It all flows naturally. That way viewers get the idea how strongly it is a part of her. Shortly after scenes of this, she finds the message. Boom, we have that connection. And we understand--because we have Arya's point of view--why she's not talking to Sansa. We already know why Sansa's not talking to Arya because she's kinda freaking out over who and what Arya has become.

Therefore, instead of just being mad at Arya, we get both points of view and we're aching for both of them--TALK TO EACH OTHER!--but we get it and we feel so desperately for the both of them. Meanwhile, Bran is having awesome visions, showing us cool stuff happening past and present in Westeros. There you go, the Winterfell storyline works for everyone... Sansa, Arya, Bran, lovers of logic, general fans alike. Ah well.
You give your opinion as if it is fact.

1. It is your opinion that both viewpoints aren't given. It is my opinion that they are. Arya is actually the character that is driving the plot. Perhaps what you don't like is that Arya isn't confiding in a third person such as Sansa with LF. But if she did, it would give away any element of surprise. The whole point is that we don't know who is playing who.

2. Arya is an assassin. She trained and qualified at the House of Black and White. Jaqen tells her she is no one when she leaves. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Hou ... _and_White

3. It is your opinion that Arya isn't and never has been resentful of Sansa. However, the evidence suggests that she was. She alludes to it when she complains that her knuckles were rapped when she couldn't write as well as Sansa. Sansa wasn't flicking food at Arya at the Stark feast. How do you know that Arya didn't want to be like Sansa, but because she couldn't compete she went in the opposite direction? It's very common for a siblings to try to be different from each other. But whatever you believe, you need to produce evidence of it in a debate. What evidence do you have for your claim. I've produced mine.

4. Being a "fan" of a character is irrelevant to me. I disagree with you because I think your argument is flawed, not because I favor one character over another.

5. All well and good. But if Arya was favourably disposed to Sansa she would likely have a different interpretation. btw, I didn't think the reunion was that warm - contrast it with Jon and Sansa - two characters who also didn't get along in childhood.

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arabian
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:25 am

You are stating your opinions as facts as well, which some of mine are, but not all. Ayra is not an assassin. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. She did NOT carry out her assignments, because she was not an assassin and walked away from that life. She could not be "no one." Ergo, she is not an assassin. And my opinions are based on dialogue and things that actually happened on the show. Things that have you written in this thread are things that did not happen (Arya killing people for THOBAW, Arya being jealous of Sansa when they were younger), therefore, that is why I don't see where you are coming from.

Yes, we are seeing Arya's point of view, but that point of view is ALL about Sansa. And that is what I mean. The focal point is Sansa. I, as an Arya fan, want to see an Arya-based storyline. And the reason that the Winterfell storyline is not working for so many (and it's really not working for a lot of people) is one that I was trying to figure out and one reason I hear popping up a lot is complaints about the contrived story between the sisters, Arya's actions which all could be taken care of if Arya had a point of view that wasn't solely revolving around Sansa. If this wasn't just about Sansa. Clearly you don't agree. That's OK. Others don't as well. That's fine too.
Last edited by arabian on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gendry: You shouldn't insult people that are bigger than you are.
Arya: Then I wouldn't get to insult anyone.

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QueenofThrones
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:12 pm

A couple things I remember that could point to Arya's (quite understandable) resentment - I dont' think Jealousy - of Sansa (and all things girly) as a child, thus giving her a good internal reason to be suspicious of Sansa now...

Arya is dismissive of Sansa wanting to ride with Princess Myrcella - she thinks Myrcella is vapid and stupid - but later we learn that Myrcella is a very clever and kind girl. This is SUCH a common PoV for tomboyish girls to have (source: I was one). There is a sense that if you like girly things you are stupid until proven otherwise - of course this was internalized sexism but it's something I totally empathize with Arya about and at the same time am a bit exasperated by (since it's actually BS).

Arya's PoV in her first few chapters is littered with little references about how everything Sansa does is perfect and everything she does is flawed. Septa Mordane in particular favors Sansa. Arya does not give credit to Sansa for the hours of labor that Sansa put in to making her needlework excellent - instead she focuses on how she's not given credit. Totally normal for siblings/kids. Sansa for her part is actually a dick to Arya, but not always directly... She allows Jeyne to torment Arya without defending her. Sansa's half-hearted defense of Jon in hte last episode would have seemed quite similar to Arya. Sneaky, subtle, slimy... would be how Arya would see it. From Sansa's perspective, "Courtesy is a Lady's armor" - she should try to be kind to all, which means not berating Jeyne for abusing Arya, but also not directly attacking Arya (until provoked). Its also why sansa wont take a side in the mycah incedent. theyve always been different, and thus mistrustful and resentful of each other and still are.

I feel like the current situation is basically an adult version of their childhood rivalry. Frustrating, yes... but makes sense for aryas character.

Bronn Ferking
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:44 pm

To wear the face of the serving girl at the Freys and the young girl when she murdered Trant, wouldn't she have had to off them first? Seems out of character to have killed them for no real reason, as everyone has said above she only kills those that she judges to deserve it.

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Raeslewolhn
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:13 pm

Bronn Ferking wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:44 pm
To wear the face of the serving girl at the Freys and the young girl when she murdered Trant, wouldn't she have had to off them first? Seems out of character to have killed them for no real reason, as everyone has said above she only kills those that she judges to deserve it.
That woman's face we have no idea really. While Arya has shown some craziness, she has def shown discernment, taking revenge not just killing for herself. So I'm curious who and when and why about her.

But the face she used for Trant, that one she stole from the HoBnW, it was already a face, she didn't make it by killing anyone.

QUICK EDIT, that girl she used at the Frey could have been from the HoBnW too. But why wouldn't someone get curious? Maybe mad ppl,or maybe it wasnt, so it was a Frey face? We may never know?

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