Dany is Jon's ..... errrr, Aegon's aunt?

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darwin-t
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:36 pm

Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:50 am

Could someone please explain the relationship. Who was Jon's father (Raegar?) to the Mad King and who is Dany's father?

Thanks.

serenity
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:39 am

Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:00 am

darwin-t wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:50 am
Could someone please explain the relationship. Who was Jon's father (Raegar?) to the Mad King and who is Dany's father?

Thanks.
Mad King had 3 children - Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys. If Rhaegar was Jon's father, this means that Dany is Jon's aunt (because Rhaegar was her brother).

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:46 pm

darwin-t wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:50 am
Could someone please explain the relationship. Who was Jon's father (Raegar?) to the Mad King and who is Dany's father?

Thanks.
There's a lot of talk about this on various forums.

Is it really incest yet? Bc they don't know yet. (It willDEF be when they do). In most cases relatedness is dangerous for breeding. Is it bc Cersei and Jaime are aware of kinship, twins raised together, that makes it so much more gross, relatively speaking?

Tommen etc were apx. 75% inbred bc Jaime and Cersei are 50% related, versus Rhaegar and Dan who were 87% related and would've had super incest babies but never fucked, versus Jon and Dany who are 44% related so their kids would be 54% related, based on recombination averages and genealogy. Meanwhile, 1st cousins which everyone is cool with in Westeros and in Earth royalty, are 25% related and bear kids who are 30% inbred.

So really, where do we draw the line with science? And where do we draw it with morality?

For CnJ, it's a go of extreme narcissistic sickness. For DnJ, it's a different kind of love story....

Either way it's TV, I'm rooting for them. Unification and down with the Lion and the Night! :)

ChristinaB618
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:06 pm

Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:30 pm

Raeslewolhn wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:46 pm
darwin-t wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:50 am
Could someone please explain the relationship. Who was Jon's father (Raegar?) to the Mad King and who is Dany's father?

Thanks.
There's a lot of talk about this on various forums.

Is it really incest yet? Bc they don't know yet. (It willDEF be when they do). In most cases relatedness is dangerous for breeding. Is it bc Cersei and Jaime are aware of kinship, twins raised together, that makes it so much more gross, relatively speaking?

Tommen etc were apx. 75% inbred bc Jaime and Cersei are 50% related, versus Rhaegar and Dan who were 87% related and would've had super incest babies but never fucked, versus Jon and Dany who are 44% related so their kids would be 54% related, based on recombination averages and genealogy. Meanwhile, 1st cousins which everyone is cool with in Westeros and in Earth royalty, are 25% related and bear kids who are 30% inbred.

So really, where do we draw the line with science? And where do we draw it with morality?

For CnJ, it's a go of extreme narcissistic sickness. For DnJ, it's a different kind of love story....

Either way it's TV, I'm rooting for them. Unification and down with the Lion and the Night! :)
I am all for this union. Avunculate marriage (marriage between uncle/niece or aunt/nephew) was normal in the middle ages, especially among royal houses. Tywin and Joanna Lannister were cousins. No one would bat an eye, this is normal. Is it technically a form of incest? Incest is subjective. It depends on the context and the law. It is pretty much considered incest when people are "of too close a relation to each other to marry". In the time period and culture in which GoT is clearly based, this would NOT in any way have been weird. The Targaryens marrying siblings was a bit weird. But Dany being Jon's aunt is not an issue in this context. GRRM takes a lot of influence from the War of the Roses. One of the families in this war were the Yorks. Elizabeth of York had a sexual affair with her uncle, King Richard. NO ONE thought it was weird or creepy or gross. It is just context. So, everyone should get past this detail and worry more about the fact that Jon's claim to the Iron Throne is stronger than Dany's and that THIS will cause conflict for sure.

WildSeed
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:39 am

Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:15 pm

[/i].
I generally agree with Raeslewolhn on this point. To what
degree of common ancestry that links Danerys & Jon, is of
courseimportant but does lessen the chance of a malformed
fetus.Depending on the Ploidy sets (Haploid,Diploid) and
individual healthiness of the mated pairs (Jon & Dany) , the
two may produce a healthy offspring.

The risk of passing on lethal genes does remain. Even in
make believe Westeros, infant deformities were clearly
demonstrated.

I'm more concerned about that expression on Tyrion's face,
when Jon entered Danerys's bed chambers. As an avid reader
and one whom appreciates history, I have little doubt that
Tyrian has come across dated texts of former high Septons.
If true, Aeamon Targaryeon, Samwell, Bran and Tyrion have
learned that major insight.

WildSeed

WildSeed
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:39 am

Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:18 pm


I meant to quote Christina B...16

ChristinaB618
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:06 pm

Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:18 am

WildSeed wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:15 pm
[/i].
I generally agree with Raeslewolhn on this point. To what
degree of common ancestry that links Danerys & Jon, is of
courseimportant but does lessen the chance of a malformed
fetus.Depending on the Ploidy sets (Haploid,Diploid) and
individual healthiness of the mated pairs (Jon & Dany) , the
two may produce a healthy offspring.

The risk of passing on lethal genes does remain. Even in
make believe Westeros, infant deformities were clearly
demonstrated.

I'm more concerned about that expression on Tyrion's face,
when Jon entered Danerys's bed chambers. As an avid reader
and one whom appreciates history, I have little doubt that
Tyrian has come across dated texts of former high Septons.
If true, Aeamon Targaryeon, Samwell, Bran and Tyrion have
learned that major insight.

WildSeed
Their kid would for sure have about 25% of their shared genes. Pregnancy in the middle ages had high chance of complications and part of this was definitely due to many marriages between secondary and tertiary family members. I don't think that Tyrion knows anything about Jon's parentage, I think he is just really worried that their love will cause complication. Jon already pledged to Dany without Tyrion's knowledge. They are sharing an intimacy with each other in the midst of so much chaos that I think Tyrion is just worried about how it may complicate things

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:11 pm

WildSeed wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:15 pm
[/i].
I generally agree with Raeslewolhn on this point. To what
degree of common ancestry that links Danerys & Jon, is of
courseimportant but does lessen the chance of a malformed
fetus.Depending on the Ploidy sets (Haploid,Diploid) and
individual healthiness of the mated pairs (Jon & Dany) , the
two may produce a healthy offspring.

The risk of passing on lethal genes does remain. Even in
make believe Westeros, infant deformities were clearly
demonstrated.
This. While incest can have bad effects, we see insanity in Cersei who is not inbred according to Westeros. Way more than Dany or Rhaegar.

Also, in THIS case, maybe Jon is the ONLY one she can have a healthy baby with, bc enough dragon blood but not too incestuous.
I'm more concerned about that expression on Tyrion's face,
when Jon entered Danerys's bed chambers. As an avid reader
and one whom appreciates history, I have little doubt that
Tyrian has come across dated texts of former high Septons.
If true, Aeamon Targaryeon, Samwell, Bran and Tyrion have
learned that major insight.

WildSeed
I donno if Tyrion knows, don't think so actually, but I too am more concerned about his face than the incest. I think, though, he's worried for what it means politically, btwn Jon Snow/Stark and Dany as King And Queen

Violator
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:14 pm

Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:20 pm

I have no issue because I have no issue.

I don't think Cersei and Jamie are 'bad guys' because they are twins, in love and in a sexual relationship. I enjoy reading about the cultural implications of it, but I don't moralise because I simply don't care.

I don't want George or D and D to pander to those with hang-ups.

I'm happy to go where the show takes me.

Violator
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:14 pm

Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:51 pm

WildSeed wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:15 pm
[/i].
I generally agree with Raeslewolhn on this point. To what
degree of common ancestry that links Danerys & Jon, is of
courseimportant but does lessen the chance of a malformed
fetus.Depending on the Ploidy sets (Haploid,Diploid) and
individual healthiness of the mated pairs (Jon & Dany) , the
two may produce a healthy offspring.

The risk of passing on lethal genes does remain. Even in
make believe Westeros, infant deformities were clearly
demonstrated.

I'm more concerned about that expression on Tyrion's face,
when Jon entered Danerys's bed chambers. As an avid reader
and one whom appreciates history, I have little doubt that
Tyrian has come across dated texts of former high Septons.
If true, Aeamon Targaryeon, Samwell, Bran and Tyrion have
learned that major insight.

WildSeed
Tyrion showed absolutely no concern in episode 6 when he spoke to Dany and enjoyed the obvious mischief in telling her how much Jon's feelings had changed towards her and watching her try to pretend she wasn't enamoured by Jon too.

He might as well have just started singing, 'Jon and Dany sitting in a tree...'.

There's no indication that he has romantic feelings towards Dany and he obviously has no idea our Star Crossed lovers are related, because he hasn't acted in any way which would suggest that. I don't know - even the concern that there would be political consequences doesn't seem to work as politically speaking, they make an obvious and very strong alliance. If Tyrion wanted Dany to hold out for a better politicial marriage, he would have cautioned Dany when he saw her developing feelings for Jon. He never did - completely the opposite in fact.

I did think that he was troubled by the possible ramifications of this,with regards to Dany producing an heir. Perhaps he wanted to encourage Dany to choose a successor on merit and begin a move away from inherited titles and begin a slow march towards constitutional change thus breaking the wheel? He might have been secretly pleased that Dany can't have children for that reason. However, he has no reason to suspect that Jon, any more than Daario would alter this fact.

I hate the whole 'breaking the wheel' thing because it creates a contradiction in Dany's motives but I won't go into that here.

So, I'm not really sure what Tyrion is looking so worried about. Maybe he was upset because Dany gets her house sigil on her cabin door and he doesn't? Perhaps he was about to play a game of Scrabble with Dany and Jon git in the way? Maybe he'd just remembered he'd locked himself out of his cabin or left his wallet at the Dragonpit? Maybe he just realised he wanted a poo?

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