Detailed spoilers for ep 2

WotW Spoiler Town, with extensive Game of Thrones Season 8 Spoilers including major leaks, filming spoilers, photos and all. Consider yourself warned!
JennyT
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:30 am

elybe wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:24 am
Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:40 am
They'll say Arya has internalized sexism, of course. I wonder if they'll continue to call Jon sexist when he leaves Sansa in charge of Winterfell next episode? :lol: :lol:
Oh, I'm thinking they'll just swing back over to "naive" and "stupid." Despite the fact that Jon and Sansa both know Tyrion well enough to know he's likely not looking to fuck over the Starks, and that Jon has an opportunity to both mine shitloads of dragonglass AND forge an alliance with the most powerful individual in the seven kingdoms, they'll argue that he should just stay put in Winterfell because he "doesn't get the south," despite the fact that NONE of these characters have ever interacted with Dany and her band of "foreigners," but at least Jon actually knows what it's like to adapt to a different culture and turn "outsiders" into allies.

You might want to prepare yourself for some of them to fall back on the increasingly popular last ditch attempt to resolve the discomfort of knowing that Sansa is unambiguously wrong about something and getting pwned by another character: She secretly manipulated everyone and planned the whole thing. Because yes, I actually saw a couple of people suggest that she argued with Jon on purpose in front of the other lords and ladies so that he could demonstrate his leadership skills and look good, knowing all along what the outcome would be. So watch a couple of people try to claim that she used reverse psychology on Jon to get him to go south, knowing that he would leave her in charge.
Exactly.I don't know how anybody who is sound of mind can say that Jon going South next week is a bad idea especially for the reasons that he does.What is he supposed to do?Wait around in the north for all of them to die?At least he is doing stuff and not just giving vague advice that amounts to nothing lol.Btw I loved Jon in the first episode.He was assertive talked more than ever lol.It reminded me a bot of ADWD Jon.Love that he gave as good as he got to Sansa.

ghost of winterfell
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:33 am

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:35 am

elybe wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:24 am
Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:40 am
Because yes, I actually saw a couple of people suggest that she argued with Jon on purpose in front of the other lords and ladies so that he could demonstrate his leadership skills and look good, knowing all along what the outcome would be.
Oh my God, I just read a comment saying this on Reddit and looking at the number of upvotes it got, the opinion seemed to be a fairly popular one!

I only follow Wotw and Reddit, (I haven't been to Tumblr or YouTube), I didn't think the reactions were that bad either. There were a lot of Sansa vs Jon arguments, but a majority of the people seem to agree with Jon or at least understand that he had a valid point of view. The ones alleging sexism etc. have been few in number, at least in the places I have visited. I just argued with one who made that statement yesterday here on Wotw lol.

Disregarding the fans and looking at the episode itself, I was fairly happy with the scenes themselves. I thought they were balanced, Jon held his own and made strong arguments. I felt even Sansa's point of view was valid, especially what she had to say about Cersei, valid as in it's understandable for her to focus on Cersei. I also liked that she was quite gentle with Jon in their one on one convo. So I don't have much to complain from the episode itself. As for the fans, what can you do.

I am not really looking forward to when he leaves though, coz if the leaks are accurate, he is going to be responsible, at least in part, for the Wall coming down. I am not forward to all the hate that's gonna come his way then lol.

elybe
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:28 pm

JennyT wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:30 am
Exactly.I don't know how anybody who is sound of mind can say that Jon going South next week is a bad idea especially for the reasons that he does.What is he supposed to do?
It's a "bad idea" for no other reason than he'll be going against what Sansa advises, and she has to be right. What he's "supposed to do" is "whatever Sansa says." He will also be blamed for her ensuing power trip, because the only reason for it will be that he spent so much time ignoring her brilliant advice (because she's a woman, natch) that she can't help herself. Just remember that Jon is always wrong and the folly of others is always his fault. Until Arya arrives anyway, but that's a whole new shitshow waiting to happen :) I know we're talking about a vocal minority here, but damn if I'm not getting a migraine.
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:35 am
I am not really looking forward to when he leaves though, coz if the leaks are accurate, he is going to be responsible, at least in part, for the Wall coming down. I am not forward to all the hate that's gonna come his way then lol.
The logic applied there will be faulty because it was always expected that the dragons would be used in the fight against the White Walkers, otherwise what's the point of having WMD's? And if they were always going to meet the NK, there was always the outside chance that he could spear one and claim it. Basically, if they leave them out of the mission they're stupid for not using their best weapon, and if they leave them in they're stupid for risking and losing their best weapon. If you're determined to hate Jon and/or Dany, you win no matter what.

But if we want to narrow it down to Jon's personal responsibility, he doesn't take the dragons north of the Wall, Dany does. He doesn't control them, Dany does. And neither of them, let alone the audience, could foresee the NK taking one out the first time up to bat. But really, don't worry about Jon after he leaves Winterfell. In the eyes of the dyed-in-the-wool Jon detractors, he will be "wrong" and "at fault" literally no matter what he does this season. If Jon had advocated for punishing the Karstark and Umber heirs while Sansa preached mercy, these people would have accused Jon of being overly rigid and not seeing the bigger picture, just like his pop. They will find a way to twist the material against Jon no matter what he does, so just enjoy the ride.

JennyT
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:36 pm

elybe wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:28 pm
JennyT wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:30 am
ghost of winterfell wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:35 am
Exactly don't focus on the negative few.It's pointless.If you want to judge something in bad faith you will.I hate this trend of blaming characters for things they can't foresee.You need to use the dragons in the fight with the WW.That's your best weapon.The wall was gonna fall anyway.It's been known since season 1 lol.It's not like Jon goes because he misses the Night King and wants to say hi.I mean even his sister doesn't fully believe how bad the situation is so imagine the others.If you want to blame someone apart from the Night King then blame all the rulers that even though they have been warned since season one have done nothing to help.At least Jon is doing something.What are the others doing besides fighting with each other?Jack shit.So blaming Jon and Dany for the wall falling is frankly stupid.

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Flayed Potatoes
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Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:08 pm

ghost of winterfell wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:35 am


I am not really looking forward to when he leaves though, coz if the leaks are accurate, he is going to be responsible, at least in part, for the Wall coming down. I am not forward to all the hate that's gonna come his way then lol.
If Dany vs Cersei seems to be a stalemate, I can't blame Jon for wanting to bring proof. He needs Dany to stop focusing on war with Cersei and focus instead on helping him fight the WW. If she continues fighting Cersei, they'll both lose even more men and for all we know she'll lose the dragons in the south, instead of using them where they're needed. Dany can't attack KL with her dragons because it has caches of wildfire underneath. If Dany sacks KL with Dothraki, then Cersei will just blow up the town and it's bad PR for Dany (who will lose a lot of men in the process). Daenerys wouldn't want her reign built on the destruction of the capital and the murder of innocents.

Not to mention all of Dany's allies are defeated. That means no Yara Greyjoy fleet, no Martell fleet/army and no Tyrell army/fleet. With her unfortunate attack on the Tarlys and Lannisters, that means reduced Lannister forces and no Tarly army. That's tens of thousands of lives lost. With no Tyrells or Tarlys to rule the Reach, the whole area is destabilized. Dorne isn't run by anyone either, so it's destabilized. The Riverlands are currently destabilized, unless Edmure magically appears. That's tens of thousands of lives lost and half the kingdom in chaos, which is really bad. Of course, I'm sure people will ignore all this because "yaaas queen" and dragon cgi is cool or whatever.

The Citadel doesn't believe the threat is real, Sansa duncurr, nobody in the south cares except for the Knights of the Vale (maybe). Bringing an actual wight seems like the only solution left and not using dragons against them is silly. Some are just determined to hate on Jon no matter what he does, from what I see. *cough* Collider *cough* He's being held up to ridiculously high standards and scrutiny compared to all the other characters/leaders.

We've been told and shown since season 1 that the WW are the big threat and that petty fights for thrones don't matter if death is coming for everyone. If people still blame Jon for caring about the WW, then they've missed the entire point of the story and have clearly paid no attention to the show.

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Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
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Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:21 pm

elybe wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:24 am

You might want to prepare yourself for some of them to fall back on the increasingly popular last ditch attempt to resolve the discomfort of knowing that Sansa is unambiguously wrong about something and getting pwned by another character: She secretly manipulated everyone and planned the whole thing. Because yes, I actually saw a couple of people suggest that she argued with Jon on purpose in front of the other lords and ladies so that he could demonstrate his leadership skills and look good, knowing all along what the outcome would be. So watch a couple of people try to claim that she used reverse psychology on Jon to get him to go south, knowing that he would leave her in charge.
Oh lord have mercy :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sure Sansa orchestrated everything on the show. She probably even manipulated Bran to climb that tower and fall on his back :lol: :lol: :lol:

Real talk, I'm sure this vocal minority thinks Jon made a mistake solely because he disagreed with Sansa. Give Sansa's lines to Tormund or Littlefinger and everyone would be singing Jon praises instead.

Boudica
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:50 am

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:34 pm

ghost of winterfell wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:35 am
I am not really looking forward to when he leaves though, coz if the leaks are accurate, he is going to be responsible, at least in part, for the Wall coming down. I am not forward to all the hate that's gonna come his way then lol.
Perhaps, I could definitely see a few people going in this direction. But I think we will understand why Jon went on this wight hunt. I think no one is going to believe him, and he will just grow more and more frustrated every day, and that is why he goes on the wight hunt. He will spend a lot of time with Dany and she will not believe him.

elybe
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:31 pm

Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:08 pm
Some are just determined to hate on Jon no matter what he does, from what I see. *cough* Collider *cough* He's being held up to ridiculously high standards and scrutiny compared to all the other characters/leaders.
Lol, you have a much higher threshold for pain than I do if you're still subjecting yourself to Collider's videos. They have an advanced degree in Narrative Incomprehension that applies across many major fandoms and franchises. They’re notoriously confident in their wrongness about…well, most things :) I officially gave up on their videos after one of their Star Wars discussions made me feel like there wasn't enough acid in the world to justify their conclusions.

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Flayed Potatoes
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:34 pm

elybe wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:31 pm
Flayed Potatoes wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:08 pm
Some are just determined to hate on Jon no matter what he does, from what I see. *cough* Collider *cough* He's being held up to ridiculously high standards and scrutiny compared to all the other characters/leaders.
Lol, you have a much higher threshold for pain than I do if you're still subjecting yourself to Collider's videos. They have an advanced degree in Narrative Incomprehension that applies across many major fandoms and franchises. They’re notoriously confident in their wrongness about…well, most things :) I officially gave up on their videos after one of their Star Wars discussions made me feel like there wasn't enough acid in the world to justify their conclusions.
I've only watched their GoT videos & thought I'd give them a shot this season. Never again lol.

Lol you're making me curious about the video you watched.

elybe
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:51 pm

I think I purged it from my brain last year. Lets just say the tinfoil is strong with those ones.

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