Euron as valonquar

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Meg22
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:57 am

It occurred to me that Euron could be a likely candidate. He's a little brother. He and Cercei have formed an alliance in which both want dominance. One of them is going to have to destroy the other in the end to achieve that.

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Wimsey
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:44 pm

He's not a little brother to Cersei. Again, it would be horrible writing if this pertained to any male with an older sibling: it has to be someone who is (preferably ironically) Cersei's Little Brother.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

Dennai
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:39 pm

The valonquar prophecy hasn't be pronounced in the show anyway. At this point any debate about it is as relevant as arguing about Lady Stoneheart next move. :D

Meg22
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Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:28 am

Book and show have to meet at the same end point. Of course, that doesn't mean that Cercei's fate will be the same as GRR Martin intended but it seems she does die, and why not in accordance with the prophesy in the book? There's no indication in the books that Lady Stoneheart has anything to do with endgame.

Valonquar is like prince in Valyerian. It's not gendered. It could therefore be either a little brother or a little sister. The prophesy doesn't say "your" valonquar but "the" valonquar. That opens up many possibilities as it doesn't have to be either a little brother or sister of Cercei's - just a little brother or sister of someone.

Lyannabanna
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Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:34 am

Wimsey wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:44 pm
He's not a little brother to Cersei. Again, it would be horrible writing if this pertained to any male with an older sibling: it has to be someone who is (preferably ironically) Cersei's Little Brother.
"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

A Feast for Crows, Chapter 36, Cersei VIII
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valonqar

The prophesy reads *the* (not your) valonqar. "His (or her) hands" almost certainly eliminates Jaime. Besides Euron, there are plenty of younger sibs who may want or need to strangle Cercei, starting with Tyrion and Arya; then there's Theon, Sandor and even Dany (naah…).

Tyrion's (bare) hands are probably too small for the job. He killed Shae with the necklace he gave her; the chain was made of interlocking hands. Jaime cannot claim this chain as his cuz he has not been Hand of the King.

Strangling is not Arya's style—even so, she could surely handle it if provoked. If he can get past The Mountain, Theon might do it in connection with a Yara rescue mission. Sandor is less motivated unless Clegan Bowl happens (not on my wish list).

Overall, my two cents worth backs Euron for sadistic/power-greedy motivation plus likely private availability to her and savage competence. Maybe he foreshadowed this with his "two hands" shot at Jaime. BTW his gesture in that scene was exactly like the NK's resurrection move at Hardhome!

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Wimsey
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Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:04 pm

Lyannabanna wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:34 am
The prophesy reads *the* (not your) valonqar. "His (or her) hands" almost certainly eliminates Jaime. Besides Euron, there are plenty of younger sibs who may want or need to strangle Cercei, starting with Tyrion and Arya; then there's Theon, Sandor and even Dany (naah…).
"Brother" means only males with whom you share a parents, unless a religious order gets involved. Otherwise, the prophecy would use the word for man.

Like all prophecies, it is going to be ironic: literally true, but not what we expected. Cersei will be killed by her little brother, just not the one we expect. Again, this is another case where we need to use GRRM's imagination, and not insert our own imaginings!
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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Wimsey
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Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 pm

Meg22 wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:28 am
Valonquar is like prince in Valyerian. It's not gendered. It could therefore be either a little brother or a little sister. The prophesy doesn't say "your" valonquar but "the" valonquar.
I don't think that there is any indication that Valonquar means "sibling." They got the "prince/princess" bit from Latin: there, the word originally was originally gender neutral. (It later became masculine, with princeps separated from principes if I recall.) However, Valyria was (insofar as we can see) like Rome in that it was not an monarchy: there were lots of noble houses forming some sort of republic. So, the concept of "prince" was different from what it came to represent with monarchy and primogeniture.

Latin has (had) different words for brother and sister, and there is zero reason to think that Valyrians lacked these words, too.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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evenwind
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Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Wimsey wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 pm
Latin has (had) different words for brother and sister, and there is zero reason to think that Valyrians lacked these words, too.
But didn't they just go out of their way to say that one Valyrian noun ("Prince") was genderless? Why assume "valonquar" isn't also?

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Wimsey
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Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:59 pm

evenwind wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:11 pm
Wimsey wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 pm
Latin has (had) different words for brother and sister, and there is zero reason to think that Valyrians lacked these words, too.
But didn't they just go out of their way to say that one Valyrian noun ("Prince") was genderless? Why assume "valonquar" isn't also?
They seem to be mimicking Latin: "princeps" is the word for either prince or princess, whereas "frater" is for brother and "soror" is for sister.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise, don't put it there."
A. P. Chehkov

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