Season 7 Pacing

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Mau mau
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:18 am

Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:58 pm

I completely understand where this conflict between Arya and Sansa is comming from and I really don't think it is forced. GRRM himself said that they will have to resolve some things between them. This is it.

I mean, Arya didn't have a good relationship with Sansa before. She betrayed her for Joffrey. Later, she knows that Sansa was married to a Lannister and a Bolton. She doesn't know the context. She knew that before she came to WF. Sansa is now keeping LF in WF. She thinks that Sansa is not that harsh in defending Jon and she sees that Sansa has ambitions and she does think that she should be QITN. She then sees that Sansa is trying to hide a latter, so it just proves her further that Sansa is afraid that that would ruin her reputation in the North, which means that she wants to tzrn lords on her side. And she saw Sansa trying to find that latter in Arya's room, so there is no reason for her to believe that LF lyied to Wolkan.

On the other hand, for Sansa Arya seems like a person she doesn't know. She has a list of people she is going to kill, she seems like a really dangerous fighter, she has faces of dead people,... We know that Sansa more than anything else wants respect, and she thinks Arya is not respecting her at all. The point is, Arya seems like a very unpredictable and strange person.

LebronBMT
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:53 pm

Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:39 pm

Needle wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:36 pm
LebronBMT wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:34 pm
All the characters have unlikable qualities. Sounds like you just have a bias for Sansa and are upset she's being portrayed with some negativity--even though she always was. Arya, also, was always an ass who never listens and always does what she wants.
I don't have a bias for Sansa, I just don't like characters being out-of-character with no good reason. "Arya was always an ass" when, exactly? When she was thrust into a life she didn't choose? If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all? Would you really live a depressing life just for the sake of pleasing the people around you?

Every other decision she made since Ned's death was a matter of survival, not being a bratty kid who thinks she can get whatever she wants. And as for Sansa, she was a stuck up girl when she was 13. She grew up, she went through serious shit, and while I can certainly see some of her old traits remain, you can't act as if she hasn't matured. She understands now what ruling truly means, and that life isn't like in the songs. She understands that childish behaviour is unnecessarily mean and hurtful, which is why she's on good terms with Jon now, and also why she doesn't want to fight Arya.

Jaime was a shitty person who turned good, Sandor was a shitty person who turned good, even Theon to an extent. That's the beautiful thing about this story, people are acting like people, not predetermined characters who don't change. Claiming Sansa is still a brat because of how she acted 5 years ago is like saying you're a bad person for not liking anymore a band you were a fan of 5 years ago.

And once again, I don't have anything against portraying characters I like as rude and unlikeable, I just don't appreciate bad writing. If you build up a character a certain way, you gotta keep going with that direction. You can't just change their personality out of nowhere. Even if you put a character through something terrible that changes them, it takes time. Theon didn't just pop up one episode after being captured and acted like Reek, it happened after several episodes where we see him tortured. The Faceless Men didn't cause Arya to lose her personality, in fact that entire storyline was about Arya reclaiming her personality. While Arya was training, she showed that she cares about Sansa's wellbeing (once again, that play).
Very first episode I remember Arya being rude to Bran. As for her other decisions, lol. She doesn't even follow through with the path she chose re: her training to be a faceless man. She hides her sword to get it later, and the whole time maintains her identity as Arya Stark right until the end rather than becoming 'no one'. She didn't follow their rules either and her ordeal with them trying to kill her and whatnot came as a result. Her whole character is one of defiance. She didn't ever listen to her father Ned either. I'm not saying she's evil I'm saying this is her character, and this is Sansa's character. They've always been like this it's not out of the blue. All of the characters have flaws including Jon and Danny.

Maybe this is part of Sansa's development plot but she still retains her original personality. The same with Arya. The whole time she was training she was thinking of her kill list, rather than becoming a nobody and serving the many faced god like she was supposed to.

If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all?

She did obey. She obeyed everyone after Ned's death. Before that she obeyed no one. She was the one insistent on marrying Joffrey despite Catelyn and Ned's protests. She didn't obey their wishes and she regularly disobeyed old nan. After Ned's death, however, she obeyed whoever her captor was. Marrying Tyrion and then Ramsey, and protecting LittleFinger at the Vale. This is her character.

User avatar
Needle
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:07 pm

Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 am

LebronBMT wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:39 pm
Needle wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:36 pm
LebronBMT wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:34 pm
All the characters have unlikable qualities. Sounds like you just have a bias for Sansa and are upset she's being portrayed with some negativity--even though she always was. Arya, also, was always an ass who never listens and always does what she wants.
I don't have a bias for Sansa, I just don't like characters being out-of-character with no good reason. "Arya was always an ass" when, exactly? When she was thrust into a life she didn't choose? If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all? Would you really live a depressing life just for the sake of pleasing the people around you?

Every other decision she made since Ned's death was a matter of survival, not being a bratty kid who thinks she can get whatever she wants. And as for Sansa, she was a stuck up girl when she was 13. She grew up, she went through serious shit, and while I can certainly see some of her old traits remain, you can't act as if she hasn't matured. She understands now what ruling truly means, and that life isn't like in the songs. She understands that childish behaviour is unnecessarily mean and hurtful, which is why she's on good terms with Jon now, and also why she doesn't want to fight Arya.

Jaime was a shitty person who turned good, Sandor was a shitty person who turned good, even Theon to an extent. That's the beautiful thing about this story, people are acting like people, not predetermined characters who don't change. Claiming Sansa is still a brat because of how she acted 5 years ago is like saying you're a bad person for not liking anymore a band you were a fan of 5 years ago.

And once again, I don't have anything against portraying characters I like as rude and unlikeable, I just don't appreciate bad writing. If you build up a character a certain way, you gotta keep going with that direction. You can't just change their personality out of nowhere. Even if you put a character through something terrible that changes them, it takes time. Theon didn't just pop up one episode after being captured and acted like Reek, it happened after several episodes where we see him tortured. The Faceless Men didn't cause Arya to lose her personality, in fact that entire storyline was about Arya reclaiming her personality. While Arya was training, she showed that she cares about Sansa's wellbeing (once again, that play).
Very first episode I remember Arya being rude to Bran. As for her other decisions, lol. She doesn't even follow through with the path she chose re: her training to be a faceless man. She hides her sword to get it later, and the whole time maintains her identity as Arya Stark right until the end rather than becoming 'no one'. She didn't follow their rules either and her ordeal with them trying to kill her and whatnot came as a result. Her whole character is one of defiance. She didn't ever listen to her father Ned either. I'm not saying she's evil I'm saying this is her character, and this is Sansa's character. They've always been like this it's not out of the blue. All of the characters have flaws including Jon and Danny.

Maybe this is part of Sansa's development plot but she still retains her original personality. The same with Arya. The whole time she was training she was thinking of her kill list, rather than becoming a nobody and serving the many faced god like she was supposed to.

If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all?

She did obey. She obeyed everyone after Ned's death. Before that she obeyed no one. She was the one insistent on marrying Joffrey despite Catelyn and Ned's protests. She didn't obey their wishes and she regularly disobeyed old nan. After Ned's death, however, she obeyed whoever her captor was. Marrying Tyrion and then Ramsey, and protecting LittleFinger at the Vale. This is her character.
When was Arya rude to Bran? When she shot an arrow to tease him? Arya was laughing after that, Bran was laughing after that, even Ned and Catelyn laughed after seeing it. It wasn't rudeness, it was fun sibling teasing.
Arya didn't want to become a Faceless Man, it was a last resort, she had no where to go. Remember, when she went to the boat captain, she asked to go North to Jon, because that's the only place she could go. Arya might have been intrigued by the idea after seeing Jaqen kill people so easily, but that was before she knew what becoming a Faceless Man actually meant. It was never her path, or goal. Arya has flaws but they aren't the ones they show in recent episodes.

As for my question to you, I was speaking about Arya, not Sansa. You said Arya was an ass who did whatever she wanted. When "whatever she wanted" referred to not agreeing to conform to gender stereotypes and the life her parents force her to live.
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Pigeon
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:44 am

Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:21 am

Needle wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:57 am
LebronBMT wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:39 pm
Needle wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:36 pm


I don't have a bias for Sansa, I just don't like characters being out-of-character with no good reason. "Arya was always an ass" when, exactly? When she was thrust into a life she didn't choose? If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all? Would you really live a depressing life just for the sake of pleasing the people around you?

Every other decision she made since Ned's death was a matter of survival, not being a bratty kid who thinks she can get whatever she wants. And as for Sansa, she was a stuck up girl when she was 13. She grew up, she went through serious shit, and while I can certainly see some of her old traits remain, you can't act as if she hasn't matured. She understands now what ruling truly means, and that life isn't like in the songs. She understands that childish behaviour is unnecessarily mean and hurtful, which is why she's on good terms with Jon now, and also why she doesn't want to fight Arya.

Jaime was a shitty person who turned good, Sandor was a shitty person who turned good, even Theon to an extent. That's the beautiful thing about this story, people are acting like people, not predetermined characters who don't change. Claiming Sansa is still a brat because of how she acted 5 years ago is like saying you're a bad person for not liking anymore a band you were a fan of 5 years ago.

And once again, I don't have anything against portraying characters I like as rude and unlikeable, I just don't appreciate bad writing. If you build up a character a certain way, you gotta keep going with that direction. You can't just change their personality out of nowhere. Even if you put a character through something terrible that changes them, it takes time. Theon didn't just pop up one episode after being captured and acted like Reek, it happened after several episodes where we see him tortured. The Faceless Men didn't cause Arya to lose her personality, in fact that entire storyline was about Arya reclaiming her personality. While Arya was training, she showed that she cares about Sansa's wellbeing (once again, that play).
Very first episode I remember Arya being rude to Bran. As for her other decisions, lol. She doesn't even follow through with the path she chose re: her training to be a faceless man. She hides her sword to get it later, and the whole time maintains her identity as Arya Stark right until the end rather than becoming 'no one'. She didn't follow their rules either and her ordeal with them trying to kill her and whatnot came as a result. Her whole character is one of defiance. She didn't ever listen to her father Ned either. I'm not saying she's evil I'm saying this is her character, and this is Sansa's character. They've always been like this it's not out of the blue. All of the characters have flaws including Jon and Danny.

Maybe this is part of Sansa's development plot but she still retains her original personality. The same with Arya. The whole time she was training she was thinking of her kill list, rather than becoming a nobody and serving the many faced god like she was supposed to.

If you were in her position when she was a kid, and you were told the only purpose in your life is to marry someone and give them children, and that you can't do the things you like doing because of your social status, would you really obey and do it all?

She did obey. She obeyed everyone after Ned's death. Before that she obeyed no one. She was the one insistent on marrying Joffrey despite Catelyn and Ned's protests. She didn't obey their wishes and she regularly disobeyed old nan. After Ned's death, however, she obeyed whoever her captor was. Marrying Tyrion and then Ramsey, and protecting LittleFinger at the Vale. This is her character.
When was Arya rude to Bran? When she shot an arrow to tease him? Arya was laughing after that, Bran was laughing after that, even Ned and Catelyn laughed after seeing it. It wasn't rudeness, it was fun sibling teasing.
Arya didn't want to become a Faceless Man, it was a last resort, she had no where to go. Remember, when she went to the boat captain, she asked to go North to Jon, because that's the only place she could go. Arya might have been intrigued by the idea after seeing Jaqen kill people so easily, but that was before she knew what becoming a Faceless Man actually meant. It was never her path, or goal. Arya has flaws but they aren't the ones they show in recent episodes.

As for my question to you, I was speaking about Arya, not Sansa. You said Arya was an ass who did whatever she wanted. When "whatever she wanted" referred to not agreeing to conform to gender stereotypes and the life her parents force her to live.
This.

BeardedOnion
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:38 pm

Arya was rude to Bran when they were meeting the Lannisters. She shoved him out the way and said "MOVE!".

Not that its anything to hold against her since she was a child. Much like the rest of them, including Sansa.

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