'Catspaw Dagger' Importance?

LebronBMT
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:53 pm

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:47 pm

Meg22 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 pm
LebronBMT wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:42 pm
Meg22 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:35 pm
Bran would be only useful dead for what he knows. Joffrey doesn't have a motive in this. How would Joffrey know what Bran saw? Why would killing Bran impress his father? Robert Baratheon didn't know Cercei and Jaime were lovers and his children by Cercei weren't his.

Cercei and Jaime do have a motive, but I doubt they'd send a valyerian steel dagger with the assassin. The person responsible wanted this weapon to be traceable. Who stood to benefit? I can only think of Littlefinger.
I think Littlefinger is a suspect too. But I think there is another, even more suspicious candidate. Too spoilery to even suggest it.
Bran has given one clue - it's someone very wealthy. It's someone who wants to cause trouble between the Lannisters and the Starks possibly to start a rebellion. It would also have to be someone who knows about Bran's accident - maybe someone with a spy network who deplores the current ruler and his progeny. Someone, perhaps, who had declared Littlefinger to be the most dangerous man in the realm, and would have no compunction in setting him up.
Very interesting implication!

onefromaway
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:25 pm

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 pm

LebronBMT wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:47 pm
Meg22 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 pm
LebronBMT wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:42 pm


I think Littlefinger is a suspect too. But I think there is another, even more suspicious candidate. Too spoilery to even suggest it.
Bran has given one clue - it's someone very wealthy. It's someone who wants to cause trouble between the Lannisters and the Starks possibly to start a rebellion. It would also have to be someone who knows about Bran's accident - maybe someone with a spy network who deplores the current ruler and his progeny. Someone, perhaps, who had declared Littlefinger to be the most dangerous man in the realm, and would have no compunction in setting him up.
Very interesting implication!
OOOHHHHH my! Very interesting!

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Dgskdive
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Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 pm

Jack Bauer 24 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:15 am
I thought it was LF's? He said he lost it to Tyrion in a bet in S1.

You still believe anything that Little Finger says? You know nothing Jack Bauer 24. :P

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QueenofThrones
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:02 am

As Wimsey is wont to say, the gun has been hung so it must be fired.

You don't bring this distinctive dagger back and give it repeated screentime without it going into someones' gut before the end of the season. So, I think it's gonna stab someone on Sunday. I'm not sure who yet though. Further, I think that when Bran/3ER gave Arya the dagger, he knew this would happen - which is part of why he looked... even weirder than usual when it gave it to her.

I also think that this dagger will be Arya's VS weapon going into the future. Jon has Longclaw, he doesn't need another VS weapon, even if this one has Targaryen origins.
onefromaway wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:21 pm
I've wondered about this too. Primarily because the reason given for Joffrey's desire to kill Bran was to gain favor in his "father's" eyes (to put Bran out of his misery) just doesn't sound right to me. I don't see Joffrey seeking his "father's" approval. In the show, Robert and Joffery don't have much of a relationship and I see him getting whatever he wants through manipulating his mother, Cersei. Since Cersei holds Robert in contempt, I imagine Joffrey does too.

But on the side, doesn't this theory come out of the books and not the show?
Yes, it comes from the books, where the characterization of Joffery was rather different. Joffery identified strongly as a Baratheon and son of Robert. He was shown on several occasions seeking Roberts' approval. One example is he talks about how his father was the hero of the rebellion and Tywin was a coward for hiding in Casterley Rock. In the books, Robert also abused Joffery - once he hit him so hard he nearly killed him (and this was again during a twisted attempt Joffery made to please Robert - he killed a pregnant cat and showed its body to Robert). Robert despised Joffery, leading to Jofferys' attempts to please and appease him.

We know from the book that Robert said drunkenly and in front of Joffery, Tyrion, and Jaime that if Bran was his child, he'd put him out of his mercy. Joffery heard that, and decided to do what he thought he father would approve of. He was also stupid, so he just grabbed whatever weapon he could find and a bag of gold, and found some random lowlife to do the job. There's no direct evidence, linking Joffery to the crime - but those who knew him well (Tyrion and Jaime) each independently thought it was an in-character thing to do - its their musings that constitute the "proof".

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 pm

So I think there's great points all over here! But I'm confused between the show and book references.

Either way it isn't conclusive. I definitely agree it has to have more significance than so far, or even just killing LF. I think it has a special Targ origin too.


But I'm not sure it has to go anywhere after Arya. I also agree it suits her better.

LF was already trying to start that war but so was Varys. However, show!Varys would Never harm a child, so it has to be LF if it wasn't Joffrey. It seems Tywin would have a motive too,which no one mentioned, but I'm not certain. Def a Lannister or LF though.

And I'm not convinced it's the same dagger Rob loved to begin with, but not ruling it out either.
QueenofThrones wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:02 am
As Wimsey is wont to say, the gun has been hung so it must be fired.

You don't bring this distinctive dagger back and give it repeated screentime without it going into someones' gut before the end of the season. So, I think it's gonna stab someone on Sunday. I'm not sure who yet though. Further, I think that when Bran/3ER gave Arya the dagger, he knew this would happen - which is part of why he looked... even weirder than usual when it gave it to her.

I also think that this dagger will be Arya's VS weapon going into the future. Jon has Longclaw, he doesn't need another VS weapon, even if this one has Targaryen origins.
onefromaway wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:21 pm
I've wondered about this too. Primarily because the reason given for Joffrey's desire to kill Bran was to gain favor in his "father's" eyes (to put Bran out of his misery) just doesn't sound right to me. I don't see Joffrey seeking his "father's" approval. In the show, Robert and Joffery don't have much of a relationship and I see him getting whatever he wants through manipulating his mother, Cersei. Since Cersei holds Robert in contempt, I imagine Joffrey does too.

But on the side, doesn't this theory come out of the books and not the show?
Yes, it comes from the books, where the characterization of Joffery was rather different. Joffery identified strongly as a Baratheon and son of Robert. He was shown on several occasions seeking Roberts' approval. One example is he talks about how his father was the hero of the rebellion and Tywin was a coward for hiding in Casterley Rock. In the books, Robert also abused Joffery - once he hit him so hard he nearly killed him (and this was again during a twisted attempt Joffery made to please Robert - he killed a pregnant cat and showed its body to Robert). Robert despised Joffery, leading to Jofferys' attempts to please and appease him.

We know from the book that Robert said drunkenly and in front of Joffery, Tyrion, and Jaime that if Bran was his child, he'd put him out of his mercy. Joffery heard that, and decided to do what he thought he father would approve of. He was also stupid, so he just grabbed whatever weapon he could find and a bag of gold, and found some random lowlife to do the job. There's no direct evidence, linking Joffery to the crime - but those who knew him well (Tyrion and Jaime) each independently thought it was an in-character thing to do - its their musings that constitute the "proof".
onefromaway wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 pm
LebronBMT wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:47 pm
Meg22 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:24 pm
Bran has given one clue - it's someone very wealthy. It's someone who wants to cause trouble between the Lannisters and the Starks possibly to start a rebellion. It would also have to be someone who knows about Bran's accident - maybe someone with a spy network who deplores the current ruler and his progeny. Someone, perhaps, who had declared Littlefinger to be the most dangerous man in the realm, and would have no compunction in setting him up.
Very interesting implication!
OOOHHHHH my! Very interesting!
Lluid wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:37 pm
You did a good job summarizing all we know about the dagger ! (all I know at least)

If we want to jump into speculation, I'd say that the dagger is not meant for Jon :
- From a character point of view, the dagger corresponds better to Arya than Jon. She's the assassin.
- As the 3 eyed raven, Bran probably gave the dagger to Arya intentionally. Else he would have kept and given it to Jon later.

However, you could claim that Arya is only the "chosen" holder of the dagger until she completes something important with it, passing it to Jon afterwards :
- That would lead to the impression that the dagger would have some kind of "will" or ability to influence people's will so that it gets into the hands of someone special. Possible but I don't like it.
- The dagger would be meant for Jon only if something magical happens when he uses it. For instance, he could turn any enemy he kills with it into a "fire wight" fighting for him. Only because he's a Targaryen. But we would already have heard of such incredible things in old books and tales through Westeros right ?

To sum it up, my impression is that this dagger is only a very fine and expensive Valyrian steel dagger. Since it's unique, of course it's always in the hands of important people because it's kind of a prize. And therefore parts of history are attached to it. But nothing more. Rhaegar had it, but it's not necessarily linked to Targaryens in a deeper level.
But if I'm wrong, I'm quite interested in all the ideas you could find about the effect the dagger could gain if Jon was using it (or any special reason for him to have this dagger instead of any other Valeryan steel weapon).

Tensor the Mage
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 am

Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:44 am

If nothing else, it's a way of getting a Valyrian steel weapon into the hands of first Arya and now Sansa, just before they really, really need such a weapon. ;)

Let's recall a key point of misdirection from the pilot. When we first meet the Siblings From Hell, they're conversing in the Throne Room about the death of Jon Arryn, who is lying in state there. This sets up the audience to believe they had Jon Arryn killed to protect their incestuous secret. We later learn Lysa Arryn killed her husband at Littlefinger's behest.

The assassin was sent with the dagger to kill Bran for what he had seen of the Lannister twins -- or was Bran targeted for another reason? Why kill him, other than to protect the Lannisters?

Lluid
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:34 am

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:59 pm

There's one thing in the show that could hint why Jeoffrey would want to kill Bran : In season 1, there's a scene where Tyrion slaps Jeoffrey several times to force him to go and see the Starks and tell them he's sorry for what happened to Bran.
Clearly Jeoffrey isn't sorry, so after obeying to his uncle he might have sought some kind of revenge in his own way.
Actually as the Hound remarks, the prince will remember.

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Raeslewolhn
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:16 am

Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:30 pm

Tensor the Mage wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:44 am
If nothing else, it's a way of getting a Valyrian steel weapon into the hands of first Arya and now Sansa, just before they really, really need such a weapon. ;)

Let's recall a key point of misdirection from the pilot. When we first meet the Siblings From Hell, they're conversing in the Throne Room about the death of Jon Arryn, who is lying in state there. This sets up the audience to believe they had Jon Arryn killed to protect their incestuous secret. We later learn Lysa Arryn killed her husband at Littlefinger's behest.

The assassin was sent with the dagger to kill Bran for what he had seen of the Lannister twins -- or was Bran targeted for another reason? Why kill him, other than to protect the Lannisters?
Exactly. A possible motive could be to start a war between lion and wolf

Tensor the Mage
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 am

Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:51 pm

A possible motive could be to start a war between lion and wolf

But sending an assassin to murder Bran in his comatose state would tend away from this. If Bran awakens and says, "Jaime pushed me from the tower window," that would start such a war right there.

Maybe Varys was indeed the hand behind the Catspaw Assassin, but his intent was to keep peace in the realm. Killing Bran before he could talk would eliminate a possible source of conflict within the Seven Kingdoms.

(Note also that when Varys actually handles that dagger, he does so expertly...)

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Jack Bauer 24
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Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:58 pm

Why did LF lie to Cat saying he lost it in a bet to Tyrion?

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